Rufuskins' Workshop LNWR Coaches

I've now completed all of the 14 coach diagrams for the arc roof profile 50ft x 8ft "Suburban" stock - 4 x F, 3 x C, 2 x T and 5 x BT. The BTs will have forward and rear facing versions.

I now need to create sufficient numbers of each to satisfy the requirements of deployment to suburban services in the London, Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester areas. A total of 82 sets were created for 12 services/districts. I will generate a minimum of 12 formations (consists), one for each service district. I will form the sets as they were originally set up, although over the period between 1897/1902 and 1923 there were numerous tweaks. However I will base the consists on the 1915 LNWR Coach Diagram Book and this means no Second class compartments.

I've now completed sufficient numbers to create the four proposed sets of 50ft coaches for potential upload. However the braking definition tweak is not yet complete as it is not clear as to the extent of the data applicable to coaches built in the late 1890s and early 1900s! (Yes; I still use exclamation marks with gay abandon!)

I've now decided on the braking definition lines and started to insert them in the WAG files using the ENG/WAG File Editor facility in Route Riter. I now need to work through the existing sets of non-corridor coaches in a methodical manner! I shall also make some minor tweaks and additions where necessary.

The 45ft coaches are now with Mark for a final round of checks and tests together with the a set of Passenger Views. I shall now move onto the 28ft coaches to add braking lines, etc.

The current 28ft WAG files are now amended, and I shall now move onto creating the alternative facing brakes; i.e. equivalent rear and front for current front and rear respectively! Oh well keeps me off the streets!    

Latest update:
1. 28ft coaches are amended, reversed brakes created and consists revised. Will be passed to Mark later today for a check and review - after tea and rugby match on the box.
2. 30ft 1in coaches are amended and reversed brakes created. Passenger views to be sorted and consists revised.

Managed to create Passenger Views for most of the 30ft 1in passenger carrying stock, and I just have some third class coaches to do. Thank you Mark for showing me the way! Hopefully finish those tomorrow and I can then pass the sets through to Mark for a second checking. It should be noted that most of the Brake units will not have Passenger Views.



(I see that the method of uploading pictures has changed; but it seems relatively straightforward.)

Here's yet another update that is as much for my information as anything else!
1. 28ft coaches completed and with Mark for final checking.
2. 30ft coaches for the one-off Birmingham-Sutton Set 6 not yet started.
3. 30ft 1in coaches completed and with Mark for final checking.
4. 42ft coaches currently being updated to include new braking definition.
5. 45ft coaches completed and with Mark for final checking.
6. 50ft x 8ft Arc roof modelled and exported to MSTS including Polymaster tweaks. WAG files to be amended for braking and Passenger Views.
7. Other 50ft coaches with different widths and roof profiles not yet started.
8. 54ft and 57ft coaches not yet started.
9. 45ft slip coaches started, but 50ft and 57ft slip coaches not yet started.
10. 56ft (2 x 28ft coaches) conversions not yet started.
11. 60ft 2in (2 x 30ft 1in coaches) conversions not yet started.

It can be seen that there is plenty to keep me occupied. The presence of ex-LNWR coaches in LMS livery by Darwin Smith means that I am unlikely to repaint many - if any - of these coaches in LMS livery but one can never say never!

42ft coach revisions are now complete. These will be passed across to Mark for additional checking and review.

Here a rake of mixed radial and bogie 42 ft coaches departs Settle behind an LNWR 4-6-0 Experiment class loco.

They look lovely - very Nor' Western indeed. Roderic

Thanks for that.

Have had to review the 50ft x 8ft Arc coaches as I miscalculated the numbers of each diagram! Hopefully sorted now! This will allow me to put them into four distinct packages based on their area/district allocation, comprising trainsets and consists.

Deleted the previous post as I have carried on with the development of 50ft x 8ft Arc sets, and here is a screenshot of a 6 coach formation used on Euston-Watford services.

I now need to create the Broad St-Watford service formation. These will comprise the London Area/District upload - need a thorough checking by Mark, especially as I have create my own Passenger View definitions! It's then onto the service formations used in the Manchester area.

Here's some more screenshots of the 50ft coaches actually running.

I've completed the four LNWR District 50ft x 8ft Arc Non-corridor coach packages, but of course they will need checking. Here's a screenshot of the seven car formation used on the Birmingham - Sutton Coldfield service:-

I will probably move onto the unique Birmingham-Sutton Coldfield Set No 6 which comprised eleven (11) 30ft x 9ft Elliptical Roof coaches built in 1911 and still with gas lighting!

I've started the elliptical roof profile for a 9ft wide coach' but now about to start yet another attempt to marry the three radii involved - very much a case of trial and error! I'm hopeful that this next attempt will do the trick.

Elliptical roof sorted - well, as well as I can manage! Created most of the components for the Diagram 118 First Class carriage together with the textures for the sides. However I have struggled creating the textures for the carriage ends - not sure why though? Will see what I can do this evening!
Trying to see whether I can obtain any copies of marshalling data for LNWR carriages, circa 1915 to match the 1915 Diagram Book - there are booklets available in the LNWR Society archive but depends on cost, etc.!

Currently in the process of putting the parts together for the first 30ft LNWR non-corridor coach (Diagram 118), having sorted some textures plus the rain strip for the roof. I will move on to Diagrams 299 (Third) and 362 (Brake Third without a Look Out).

. . . and here's a screenshot of a Diagram 118.

I now need to copy this to create the other two Diagram 118s that formed part of Set No' 6!

I have now completed a model of Diagram 299 (Third).

After several emails with a member of the LNWR Society it turns out that the panelling to these 30ft coaches is not as I have it on the Diagram 118. It should in fact be a single panel between doors with the number located centrally above the LNWR emblem - see screenshot above! Thankfully I hadn't duplicated Diagram 118, so I only have one set of coach textures to amend!
Now it's on to Diagram 362 (Brake Third) with two required, one for each end.

Will be putting the various parts together for the Diagram 362 (Brake Third) either today or tomorrow - the family is visiting today for the annual Easter egg hunt.
The Birmingham - Sutton Set 6 was close coupled as per the 28ft sets, and I've had to remember to adjust the setting out to avoid the problems met with the 28ft brakes!
Once I've finished this and the required number of coaches the set should be available for checking and review.
I then intend to move onto the 50ft x 9ft Elliptical Roof coaches followed by any other 9ft width coaches with an elliptical roof profile. In addition there were some 50ft x 8ft 6in wide coaches used in 6 Stockport District sets with an elliptical roof profile.
After that coaches with a cove roof profile.
It has been and will continue to be a challenge to create these carriages because it stimulates my brain and gives me great enjoyment despite the many setbacks. I ran a set in Open Rails the other day and they looked alright to my ancient eyes - well they do say beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

Here's a screen shot of Birmingham - Sutton Set 6 running on the Black Country route and being hauled by a Coal Tank.

This means another potential upload available for checking and review.
It's now onto 50ft x 9ft coaches with an elliptical roof profile!

Very nice looking coaches! You are producing some nice work! Keep it up!

Thanks for the encouragement, which is always welcome.

Current status of my LNWR Non-corridor Carriages project, which when listed certainly appears daunting, is noted below:-.

1. 28ft coaches – being checked.
2. 30ft coaches – completed but needs review for passenger views and end steps.
3. 30ft 1in coaches – being checked.
4. 42ft coaches – being checked.
5. 45ft coaches – being checked.
6. 50ft x 8ft arc roof coaches – completed and available for checking.
7. 50ft x 9ft elliptical roof coaches – started and in progress (ten coach diagrams referenced in the LNWR 1915 Coach Diagram book).
8. 50ft x 9ft cove roof coaches – dimensioned sketches prepared.
9. 50ft x 8ft 6in elliptical roof coaches – dimensioned sketches prepared.
10. 54ft x 9ft elliptical roof coaches – dimensioned sketches prepared.
11. 57ft x 9ft elliptical roof coaches – dimensioned sketches prepared.
12. 45ft, 50ft and 57ft slip coaches – dimensioned sketches prepared and 45ft started.
13. 56ft (2 x 28ft coaches) conversions – developed from Item 1 above.
14. 60ft 2in (2 x 30ft 1in coaches) conversions – developed from Item 3 above.

Gee Alec,

At the rate you're going, you're going to model EVERY coach that the LNWR ever had - not just every TYPE of LNWR coach, but every INDIVIDUALLY numbered coach the LNWR ever had.

Anyway - a really great effort - they'll be much appreciated by many simmers.

Regards, Brian

Thanks for the comments Brian, they are always welcome.

I see that I've missed off 50ft x 8ft cove roof coaches! At this time I'm only concentrating on the non-corridor carriages. There may not be enough time to look at corridor coaches and/or WCJS carriages.

When I create these models I hope to be able to create sufficient for consists relevant to a particular district and/or service.

At some time I also need to go back to LYR wagons!

Having spent several hours trying to get my wife's camera to upload pictures to her Windows 10 laptop, I feel like a spent force! It was only in the last hour that I thought to check the relationship between the camera and Windows 10 that all was revealed! Yes Fuji had had to update it's firmware to allow this, and even after I downloaded it, transferred it to a memory card (after reformatting of course), I couldn't get it to update because I misunderstood the necessary camera controls. But now everything is working and I'm now wondering how I can best employ the "brownie points"!

Anyway I've decided to complete the current batch of LNWR Non-corridor carriages and then move back onto LYR wagons. This will allow Mark to complete his testing, etc. on those that I hope are finished. I need a break from them as I was making silly mistakes - probably due to a bit of complacency!

Alec, are you planning to make the completed ones available for download so that we can try them?

dforrest wrote:Alec, are you planning to make the completed ones available for download so that we can try them?

It all depends on the results of the final testing, and whether I can recover from yet another braking bashing!

Despite concentration on the LYR wagons I have started to see where I'm at with the LNWR coaches. In the short term I want to put some slides together for when I visit the LNWR archive centre on the 21st - just in case anyone there is interested.
I'm in discussion with Mark as to where the testing stands and I hope to see whether uploads can be made in June after a short holiday break at the beginning of June. I hope to gather some formation/marshalling information in the visit mentioned above in order to create relatively realistic formations!
I will also take the opportunity to review and amend as necessary the SR Bulleid 59ft coaches, as well as create some BR liveried versions. Of course there's still my hopes of sorting the Hawksworth coach roof profile!

I returned from my trip to the LNWR archives earlier this evening where I was made most welcome. The plethora of archive material was somewhat daunting, so I decided to concentrate on one marshalling circular for the year 1919. This has given me some idea of the makeup for the divisional "chained-up" and inter district sets. Unfortunately it only quotes length, lighting and general coach type. However within reason i should be able to create representative formations for a wide range. In addition I have coach formations for longer distance formations although these typically comprised corridor coaches. I don't have detailed dimensional information for these but perhaps a combination of the 1915 coach diagram book and David Jenkinson's book will allow me to develop some - I can also use the HMRS book on West Coast Joint Stock.

Following our trip on the ELR yesterday, Mark and I were able to discuss the situation with respect to his checking of the LNWR non-corridor coaches. He is happy with them in terms of their use in MSTS, but was still looking at them for use in Open Rails.

Of course they have been developed specifically for use in MSTS and therefore once I have sorted the LYR wagon slide show I hope to be able to finalise consists and hence look to upload them. I am looking to upload them to TSSH, UKTS and Trainsim, and probably in that order. This currently involves seven (7) separate uploads ranging in size from 10 to 20Mb zipped up using 7-zip - my best guess is the middle of July.

Well, now that the LYR presentation is out of the way I can put some LNWR Non-corridor Carriage uploads together. I need to generate some formations/consists together for the 42ft ones, and complete 28ft, 30ft and 30ft 1in upload packs. Then there are 45ft and some 50ft packs to start.

The 28ft, 30ft, 30ft 1in and 42ft upload packs are ready for upload, although the 42ft consists/formations are fictitious. I'll finalise the two 45ft upload packs this week and put them up sometime during week beginning 11th July. The 50ft x 8ft wide arc roof pack will have to wait for now, as will the 50ft x 9ft elliptical model creation.

Usual story following upload, and hence deleted from download area. Work will continue on these carriages but updates on progress are suspended until further notice.

Alec, I still have your aborted download files and have installed these and they look very good.  A brief update on what is to happen to these would be good.

Please feel free to use them in your MSTS, but at this moment in time I can only offer a very poor plagiarism of one of Shakespeare's soliloquies from Hamlet:-

"To upload, or not to upload - that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of never ending comment
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them. To upload - not to upload -
No more; and by not uploading to say we end
The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to."

As I said earlier whatever work I do on LNWR carriages will stay with me, and I can offer no other comment at this time.

Alec, does this also apply to the L&Y wagons?

dforrest wrote:Alec, does this also apply to the L&Y wagons?

We'll have to see.

rufuskins wrote:Please feel free to use them in your MSTS.

Thanks Alec, but they are only of real interest to me if they can be used in activities.

dforrest wrote:Thanks Alec, but they are only of real interest to me if they can be used in activities.

Sorry about that! Not sure when I shall recommence work in this part of the workshop, but following some comments from Mark - by PM! - I may review my use of the generic MSTS sound in the 28ft and 32ft 1in coaches?

Have just received a rake of data for LNWR coaches on a pen, although I'm not sure it will necessarily provide significant dimensional information. Unlikely to seriously recommence work on these for a few weeks, as I'm keen to complete the LYR wagons.

After a disturbed night's sleep I have reviewed the L&NWR 28ft, 30ft(BSC), 30ft1in and 42ft non-corridor coach sets. I have changed the sound lines in the first three to use Stuart Williamson's SWB Wagon Sounds - UKTS File ID 3290. (Before anyone comments I have used the "fitted" line.) This is obviously a compromise for the six wheeled coaches.
I will now consider if, when and where I shall upload these; the options being UKTS, TSSH and Trainsim (US site). Obviously, should I decide to upload, I would appreciate any positive critical comments being made by PM or email, and if these models do not meet anyone's personal standards then either don't download or delete!

Hi Alec.

I have been using the sounds from Trensim.com they are very good and some of them may be suitable for your use.

Here is what I did with the US freight sounds a few years back, using some freight sounds from Trensim.com



I used around 3 different sounds to create this effect.

Thanks for the "heads up" and I'll have a look tomorrow.

There are further sets almost ready, namely 45ft x 8ft and 50ft x 8ft Arc Roof Non-corridor Carriages. I have decided to retain the current sounds as they are available from UKTS. Obviously you are welcome to adopt your own sounds.

I have now put together 4 Trainset folders and 12 Consists for 50ft x 8ft wide Arc Roof Non-corridor Carriages. Within the 4 folders there are representative carriages for sets that ran on 12 distinct services:-

A summary of the relevant services is shown below:-
London Sets
12 sets Euston-Watford
6 sets Broad Street-Watford
Manchester Sets
17 sets London Road District
5 sets Crewe-Manchester
2 sets Crewe-Manchester - different formation to above
2 sets Manchester-Buxton
Liverpool Sets
20 sets Liverpool District
3 sets Liverpool-Garston
4 sets Liverpool-Bootle
1 set Liverpool-Garston/Bootle
Birmingham Sets
5 sets Birmingham-Sutton
5 sets Birmingham-Derby
I am looking for someone to give them the "once over" bearing in mind that they are not exact models, and sound is subjective.

I shall complete my own review and checks in the next few weeks, and then look to upload available sets when Brian has completed his excellent LNWR locomotive models.

See later post for revised plans and status.

Status is as follows:-
1. 28ft coaches – available for upload.
2. 30ft coaches – available for upload.
3. 30ft 1in coaches – available for upload.
4. 42ft coaches – available for upload.
5. 45ft coaches – available for upload.
6. 50ft arc roof coaches – available for upload.
7. 50ft x 9ft elliptical roof coaches – in progress.
8. 50ft x 9ft cove roof coaches – dimensioned sketches prepared.
9. 50ft x 8ft 6in elliptical roof coaches – dimensioned sketches prepared.
10. 54ft x 9ft elliptical roof coaches – dimensioned sketches prepared.
11. 57ft x 9ft elliptical roof coaches – dimensioned sketches prepared.
12. 45ft, 50ft and 57ft slip coaches – in progress.
13. 56ft (2 x 28ft coaches) conversions – started.
14. 60ft 2in (2 x 30ft 1in coaches) conversions – started.

Well having Brian's excellent passenger tank engines in my trainset for review. I was tempted to work on L&NWR coaches and have produced a Diagram 176A as illustrated below:-

This coach along with Diagrams 176B, 283A and 333B were made from 28ft coaches and in particular those originally used in the Mansion House sets. They were made redundant when the District Line was electrified. The conversions took place between 1920 and 1921 and literally joined two coaches together with a splice plate across the join, They had electric lighting and typical 8ft bogies. A total of 9 Diagram 176A were formed, and together with the other conversions became Inter District Sets 242-252. They lasted well into LMS days and even British Railways days being found on the Broadheath line in the mid 1950s!