Re: Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons

rufuskins Fri 23 Oct 2015, 6:41 pm

That's one of the reasons for putting this into the later miscellaneous set, although they actually only comprised a pair of modified Diagram 32A single bolsters in a total of 3 sets. I had assumed that each pair of bogies on each wagon would be nominally Bogies 1 and 2?

Scampispeedway Fri 23 Oct 2015, 8:18 pm

Hi Ian, a search around shows that the only one coming near that sort of wagon was
Chris Heighton i.e. Morpeth Curve with his two files UKTS ID's 6130 and 6149.
The only way I can suggest is to create a wagon with two 6 wheel bogies at each end and
have a short pivot platform above them then dropping down to a low platform where you
could place the boiler to be transported.

Bob

rufuskins Sat 24 Oct 2015, 7:20 pm

Had a good day out attending the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Society AGM in Ramsbottom. I say good day as the AGM was not at all boring. Pleasant chat with those in the know and I hope that I can remember everything I was advised of. The afternoon was spent on the ELR travelling from Ramsbottom up to Rawtenstall and then all the way back to Heywood before returning to Ramsbottom. All that travel for £10, which is very reasonable indeed. The LYRS is a very well run society with a membership well in excess of 800! A link to their website is shown HERE.

Anyway here's my first attempt at a common load, and in this case wooden crates for the carriage of fish in the Diagram 13 2 plank open.

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_wa36

rufuskins Sat 24 Oct 2015, 8:10 pm

Anyone for a "Fish Supper" as a loaded fish formation arrives at Rochdale behind an LYR Class 27 and a Diagram 21 Brake Van.

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_wa37

It took me several goes to get the FreightAnim line right - it would appear that I should have had a fish supper myself in order to stimulate the grey matter! Shocked

ShortNorth Sat 24 Oct 2015, 10:59 pm

Looking excellent there Alec - your wagon building is really coming along very nicely - pity the poor Guard having to live inside a 'wafting cloud of fish aroma' !!!

By the way - what's the route ? - I don't recognize that version of Rochdale.

Brian

ShortNorth Sat 24 Oct 2015, 11:24 pm

ianmacmillan wrote:I challenge you to do the boiler wagon loaded.

I have failed to figure out how to build a set of three single bolsters coupled together with a load spread over all three wagons.

I think it's impossible.
(I say that in the hope I'll be proved wrong.)

Sorry to take this off topic for a moment !

Ian,

Have a look at my NSWGR Special Wagons pack - for the long loads, I made 'dummy bogies' so the loads pivot points would sit properly on the 'real' wagons underneath, then made the dummy bogies invisible, so they wouldn't show in the sim. They seem to curve around points and track curves Ok, with the load pivoting as though it is correctly secured to the wagons underneath.

http://www.coalstonewcastle.com.au/stock/special/downloads/

Regards, Brian

**Markh5682** Sun 25 Oct 2015, 12:31 am

Brian wrote:By the way - what's the route ? - I don't recognize that version of Rochdale.

Brian

Hi Brian.
It looks like the North West England v3 route to me.

ShortNorth Sun 25 Oct 2015, 1:21 am

Thanks Mark - I don't have NWE V3 - my internet connection is far too 'flaky' at the moment to attempt to download anything.

Brian

rufuskins Sun 25 Oct 2015, 10:39 am

I can confirm that the route is NWE v3. I'm using that for action screenshots as it is at least an LYR location! I need to push on with more common loads for the current crop of wagons, and I've somehow overwritten the ACE file for the Diagram 64 Butter van - Embarassed

- and don't have a back up copy, so I'll have to re do it!

ianmacmillan Sun 25 Oct 2015, 11:47 am

Whats that smell?

Don't you have the butter van .bmp in TSM.
You should be able to copy it into the wagon folder and ACEit.

Hurry up before the butter goes rancid. The fish is bad enough.

rufuskins Sun 25 Oct 2015, 1:50 pm

Aah! That's a very good point, except in my "wisdom" I did the lettering via the ACE file and never backed it up to the TSM folder! Embarassed

Will sort that out later, and in the meantime it's creating my own coal loads!

rufuskins Sun 25 Oct 2015, 3:18 pm

Ta dah!

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_wa38

Diagrams 4, 5 and 6 - working back from the loco - laden with coal.

rufuskins Mon 26 Oct 2015, 7:29 am

Based on the recent posts in this topic it can be seen that I'm busy on developing loads for the first set of wagons.

Loads such as coal, sand, ballast and timber are relatively easy to create, and I'm now looking to create my own boxes and crates for the Half Box wagons – the LYR terminology for open wagons – that were typically used for general merchandise. In addition suitably shaped tarpaulins will be created, in particular one that would cover the nominal method of stacking cotton bales for carriage to those dark satanic mills that were so abundant at that time. I also need to create a suitable furniture container for the Diagram 14, which I can presumably base on the later ones used by the LMS. Probably the bigger challenge is to create a road vehicle that would be typical for carriage by the Diagram 11. These wagons were converted back to Diagram 1 by 1909, and hence the vehicle needs to be relevant to 1890s and 1900s.

Obviously for many of these loads I could have used some of the common loads that are currently available via UKTS. However despite their quality I have found that they don't always quite fit the wagons that I'm making for the LYR. Therefore I decided to make my own, which adds to the interest and diversity of virtual model making for MSTS using TSM. This means that I have to do more background research, and this adds to the enjoyment of this hobby.

dee4141 Mon 26 Oct 2015, 9:37 am

Nice work Alec, very well done! Very Happy

There's such a variety coming from your workshop.....It's good to see there's still modellers out there making new contributions to the old sim......and the "new" OR of course!

rufuskins Mon 26 Oct 2015, 1:44 pm

Thanks for the positive comments. Here's some ballast wagons (Diagram 53).

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_wa39

rufuskins Mon 26 Oct 2015, 8:00 pm

This is the initial model for a furniture container for carriage by a Diagram 14 Piece wagon. It's loosely based on an early LMS container as I have been unable to find anything for an LYR equivalent. It's not an unreasonable approach so I'll add a bit of lettering and include it in my LYR_Common.Loads folder.

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_wa40

rufuskins Thu 29 Oct 2015, 6:45 pm

Dabbled a bit with another common load today, but it's currently not showing in MSTS! It comprises a set of six axles/wheels joined together to make a single part with no rotation. It exports to MSTS with no problem and clearly shows in Shape Viewer.

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_cl10

However it will not show in MSTS giving the following message:-

"Can't Add Car (uid:20000n) to world"

Now I know that indicates an error within the model such as polygon related or possibly texture related. My guess was the former and hence I ran the part through Polymaster, but this has made no difference. I am at a bit of a loss as how to solve this as I don't want to discard this as a common load, and I would welcome any suggestions as how to proceed?

**slipperman12** Thu 29 Oct 2015, 10:10 pm

Hi Alec,
What I know about model making can be written on the back of a postage stamp, with room to spare, so I hope this won't be taken as "trying to teach my grandmother ... !!

The Steam4Me site shows the following for that error :

Errors starting with uid:20000n are active consist failures: The last digit (n) tells you the position in the consist (0=leading unit, 3=fourth unit, etc.).

This is usually caused by

an error within the model - polycount, corrupt compression, texture error if reskinning, etc;
removal of a shape file from its MSTS folder after the consist has been created - various registry cleaners and anti-virus programs have been implicated in this removal; finally
editing a loose consist which may make it too long and one or more vehicles becomes positioned off-track.

The only question I would ask is : do you get the same error when you include the wagon without the load in a consist? If so, it would seem that it's the wagon which has a problem.

By the way, those wheels look great Smile

Well done!!

Cheers,
Ged

rufuskins Thu 29 Oct 2015, 10:51 pm

Thankfully the wagon is OK, and it's the actual common load that appears to be the problem! I've not looked at it since the earlier post and it's on one side so to speak to give me a break, and I've been working on LNWR coaches.

PS: The wheels are those that are used on the wagons, and perhaps there's too many polys?

35005CP Fri 30 Oct 2015, 9:56 am

Hi Alec,

When you created those wheels, did you use TSM to create those spokes, or are you using a texture file to make those spokes? If so, it might be worth checking the Poly size of the wheels?

Just a thought. It might help?

ianmacmillan Fri 30 Oct 2015, 10:39 am

[img]

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Tooman11

[/img]

Try Shape fix to split it into sub objects.

rufuskins Fri 30 Oct 2015, 10:29 pm

After doing this, that and of course the other and then painting the air blue, I decided to try an obvious alternative. Yes you've all guessed it I reduced the number of axles to 4! This is the result:-

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_wa41

It's now onto creating some crates, ash, etc.

rufuskins Sat 31 Oct 2015, 7:50 pm

Here's my first effort with crates . .

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_wa42

rufuskins Wed 02 Dec 2015, 1:58 pm

Well I'm back working on my 9ft wheelbase wagons for the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway, and in particular making up some common loads. This morning created a tarpaulin cover - might need to revisit this - and a bricks load for a 5 plank Diagram 16 Half Box Wagon. Here's a screenshot showing several wagons plus a brake van behind an LYR Class 27.

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_wa10

35005CP Wed 02 Dec 2015, 2:59 pm

Very nice looking models Alec. Very Happy

Cheers

Andy

rufuskins Wed 02 Dec 2015, 3:35 pm

Thanks for the kind comments, and here's a screenshot of loaded Diagram 32A Bolster wagons.

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_wa11

rufuskins Tue 08 Dec 2015, 10:31 pm

Work on these wagon loads has been very slow; mind you the work in the LNWR area has also been slow. A bit disappointed to receive another email request via Google Community to join Train Sim Live from Matt Peddlesden of UKTS! I thought that I had unsubscribed the last time, but I have unsubscribed again so hopefully won't receive what I consider to be unsolicited emails - its bad enough getting the usual batch of spam without adding these requests! Why he should think I'm interested is beyond me, although I suppose it was done in some form of batch method!

rufuskins Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:05 pm

Is it really a month since I put some effort into the LYR wagon common loads? The LNWR coaches seem to have pushed these wagons onto the back burner! Now that the current coaches are more or less complete I need to return to the wagons and their loads!
I have tried without success to find a suitable vehicle for the Diagram 11 "Piece" wagon - a carriage in order to relate to the early 1900s - so if anyone can point me to something that I can use as a common load I would be very grateful. I have some drawings for simple LYR vehicles used on platforms that I could use as a last resort?

rufuskins Tue 19 Jan 2016, 6:36 pm

Completed a large crate common load this afternoon for the Diagram 1 Low Goods - effectively a single plank wagon -, but got myself in a right "two and eight" when trying to test it! Shocked

I'm currently using two MSTS installations one for NW England and one for Leeds-Settle-Carlisle (Renzo428), using the former for the LYR wagons and the latter for LNWR coach testing. The problem was caused because after using the latter I forgot to un-store everything, and hence when using the former for the LYR wagon test Train Store wanted to overwrite stuff from one on the other! Embarassed

I couldn't think what differences there were so in the end I merged the two installations and ran Route Riter for any errors! Thankfully none were flagged up!

I now reckon that I need a further six common loads for the LYR wagons, and they should be relatively straightforward, except a vehicle for the Diagram 11 Piece wagon. I'll cobble something together for that with the information I've got to hand.

**slipperman12** Tue 19 Jan 2016, 10:31 pm

Hi Alec,
I reckon you need to use my TSFE program! It allows you to have any number of MSTS installations running with Train Store, each having its own Storage folders. This means you don't have to worry about unstoring one before using another.

Cheers,
Ged

rufuskins Thu 31 Mar 2016, 10:41 pm

Right, let's see if I can find the light switch and make an assessment of the workshop as its several months since it's been used!

Mmmm . . . still need some loads for the current crop of 9ft wheelbase wagons. However I think I might start on the 10ft wheelbase wagons of which there are seven different types. I'll start on the Diagram 19 Cattle Wagon, and hopefully I can make use of some of the parts - suitably adjusted - from the Diagram 17 Cattle Wagon.

Anyway I'm off to bed and return to these tomorrow.

rufuskins Fri 01 Apr 2016, 4:22 pm

Well it's taken me all day to generate one common load!

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_d010

. . and here it is a short formation of 3 Diagram 12 3 plank Half Boxes with soil loads.

35005CP Fri 01 Apr 2016, 5:23 pm

Hat off to you Alec! They look like really great models! Well done! Very Happy

RIGFindlay Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:40 pm

They look superb. It is a treat to see your work in progress. I 'view posts since last visit' almost every day, and there is always something worth looking at. I loved the LNWR coaches. Best wishes. Roderic

rufuskins Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:53 pm

Thanks Andy and Roderic, positive comments are always welcome. I've only got three more 9ft w/b wagons to sort out loads for now, and hopefully they'll be complete early next week. I'm also starting on 10ft w/b as noted earlier. I also need to sort out braking definitions for those with vacuum brakes!

rufuskins Sat 02 Apr 2016, 3:54 pm

Here's the last of my common loads for the 9ft w/b wagons, namely some cable drums on Diagram 2 Low Goods wagons.

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_d011

Personally I think they look OK, but then I would wouldn't I!
Right next thing is to review and amend to suit the wagon braking definitions, before moving back onto the 10ft w/b wagons.

**Markh5682** Sat 02 Apr 2016, 4:40 pm

They look good to me Alec.

rufuskins Sat 02 Apr 2016, 6:23 pm

Thanks for the comment - much appreciated.

rufuskins Sat 02 Apr 2016, 7:24 pm

Having perused a cross-section of unfitted wagons, I am opting for the following braking definition in those with a handbrakes only.

BrakeEquipmentType ( "Handbrake, vacuum_brake" )
BrakeSystemType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
MaxBrakeForce( 0KN )
MaxHandbrakeForce( 15kN )
NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 10 )

I am assuming that the value of 0KN in the MaxBrakeForce line negates the reference to vacuum_brake?

I would mention that in a number of perused cases the BrakeSystemType is stated to be "Vacuum_piped"; e.g Highworth PreGrouping unfitted stock!

rufuskins Sun 03 Apr 2016, 9:58 am

I have now amended, where relevant, all braking definitions in the 9ft w/b wagons. I will now refine the common.load folder specific for the LYR wagons that I have been creating, as well as the folders that include the various wagons. In addition I may look to add some additional common loads? At which time I will complete my own testing and review, and consider whether they are good enough to offer for upload bearing in mind the high standards offered by others.
The 10ft w/b wagons continue to slowly develop.

StephenRWells Sun 03 Apr 2016, 10:52 am

Hi Alec ,

Your wagons are of a high standard and definitely worthy of being uploaded for others to enjoy

BrakeEquipmentType ( "Handbrake, vacuum_brake" )
BrakeSystemType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
MaxBrakeForce( 0KN )
MaxHandbrakeForce( 15kN )
NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 10 )

I am assuming that the value of 0KN in the MaxBrakeForce line negates the reference to vacuum_brake?

As far as I am aware your assumption is correct. I have found that running unfitted wagons this way, especially brakevans, with Open Rails the consist drives much better whilst retaining the poor braking of an unfiited train.

Regards,

Stephen

ianmacmillan Sun 03 Apr 2016, 11:25 am

For Handbrake only (Unfitted) the brake should be set to....

BrakeEquipmentType ( "Handbrake, vacuum_brake" )
BrakeSystemType ( "Vacuum_piped" )
MaxBrakeForce( 0KN )
MaxHandbrakeForce( 25kN )
NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 )

Vacuum_piped is needed to release the brake on any fitted vehicle marshalled behind the handbrake only wagon.

The line....
MaxBrakeForce( 0KN )
is not realy needed but I set it to 0KN just to be sure.

The TecDoc says MaxHandbrakeForce( kN ) sould be 10% of mass but I have found that this is only enough for a parking brake.
For pinning down brakes on a moving wagon when descending inclines it needs to be much higher.
I set it to double the tare (empty) plus the load weight.

NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 ) does not work in steps - it's either on or off.
Any number will work but I leave it at the default 100.

rufuskins Sun 03 Apr 2016, 4:35 pm

My head is really hurting now as it would appear that I'm as thick as . . . . . . ! First one gets a statement that you can't use "vacuum_piped" and then one that you can't use "vacuum_single_piped"! Mad

Perhaps someone who is in the know can write a clear and concise description of which vacuum brake statement is used where! To be honest I'm not sure that this work is worth continuing with, and certainly I'm not sure whether they're worth uploading because as sure as eggs is eggs somebody somewhere will find fault!

**slipperman12** Sun 03 Apr 2016, 6:53 pm

Hi Alec,
Please don't lose heart!! Although I don't know much about L&Y and LNWR stock, your wagons look excellent Smile

There will always be somebody to complain. It'd be a pity if you abandon them after all your efforts. Please share them with us!

You say you're having trouble with the brakes parameters. Maybe this extract from the TechDocs (as supplied with MSTS) will help.

BrakeEquipmentType
==================
Here you should list all the elements of the wagon’s braking system. These can be:
"handbrake" – This means that there is a handbrake on the vehicle. This needs to be set if you want to park the vehicles on a slope.

"retainer_3_position" – There is a 3 position retaining valve on the vehicle. This meant for freight wagons only. Only a either a 3 or 4 position retainer is meant to be selected.

"retainer_4_position" - There is a 4 position retaining valve on the vehicle. This meant for freight wagons only. Only a either a 3 or 4 position retainer is meant to be selected.

"vacuum_brake" – There is a vacuum brake in operation. All options except the “handbrake” are ignored when vacuum brakes are in used.

“triple_valve" – The standard triple valve with partial application and full release. Plus auxilary res. charging.

"graduated_release_triple_valve" – The vehicle has a triple valve that permits partial releasing of the brakes.

"ep_brake" – This a electrically control brake system. The release and application of the brakes are independently controlled. Changes in train pipe pressure can trigger brake applications.

"ecp_brake" – Same as “ep_brake” in train sim.

"auxilary_reservoir" – The tank of air that is used for normal service brake applications. This is needed for air brake systems to work well.

"emergency_brake_reservoir" – The tank of air that is saved for emergencies. This is not used for normal service brake applications. This is optional for air brake systems.

"distributor" – An electronic or computer controller on the vehicle that can be set independently control any parameter of the braking system.

BrakeSystemType
===============
The brake system the wagon uses. Can be only one of these:

"Air_single_pipe" – One pipe controls and supplies the air brakes.
"Air_twin_pipe" – Two pipes are used. One to control the brakes, the other to charge the reserviors.
"Vacuum_single_pipe" – One pipe is used to supply and control the vacuum brakes.
"Vacuum_twin_pipe" - .Two pipes are used. One controls the vacuum brakes, the other supply the vacuum reservior.
"ECP" – The brakes are controlled by a computer or complex elctrical control system.
"EP" – The brakes are a combination of standard air brakes and electrical control signals.
"Air_piped" – The vehicle has no powered brakes. It only passes on the train pipe pressure for air brakes.
"Vacuum_piped" - The vehicle has no powered brakes. It only passes on the train pipe pressure for vacuum brakes.

Cheers,
Ged

andrew moody Mon 04 Apr 2016, 12:11 am

rufuskins wrote:My head is really hurting now as it would appear that I'm as thick as . . . . . . ! First one gets a statement that you can't use "vacuum_piped" and then one that you can't use "vacuum_single_piped"! Perhaps someone who is in the know can write a clear and concise description of which vacuum brake statement is used where! To be honest I'm not sure that this work is worth continuing with, and certainly I'm not sure whether they're worth uploading because as sure as eggs is eggs somebody somewhere will find fault!

Hi Alec.
First of all, I am going to echo Geds comments, "Please don't lose heart!! Although I don't know much about L&Y and LNWR stock, your wagons look excellent" Smile

Now here is where I get rather confused, Why on earth would anyone want to find fault or criticize your excellent work for goodness sake? Rolling Eyes

So, Having looked at your screenshot of your three open wagons loaded with cable drums, I have looked for and found a train to compare with yours.
It's on Danny Gilberts excellent Kent Coast route, The activity is "WAL Autumn Empties which is basically a BR Q class picking up empty coal wagons between Deal and
Tonbridge. They are Diagram 108 Minerals with a Diagram 506 Brakevan on the rear all are unfitted as shown below.

BR D108 Minerals

BrakeEquipmentType ( "Handbrake, vacuum_brake" )
BrakeSystemType ( "Vacuum_piped" )
MaxBrakeForce( 0KN )
MaxHandbrakeForce( 15kN )
NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 )

BR D506 Brakevan piped T&S

BrakeEquipmentType ( "Handbrake, vacuum_brake" )
BrakeSystemType ( "Vacuum_piped" )
MaxBrakeForce( 0KN )
MaxHandbrakeForce( 60kN )
NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 )

I suspect the reason you need those brake values is that MSTS can not read unbraked wagons, In reality of course, like your LNWR Wagons, the brake force was the Locomotive and of more importance The guard on the rear end keeping hold of the train, cos if he didn't, He FOR SURE would get it in the neck from the driver!!!
Just to summarize Geds Notes on Brake systems, Think you really only need to know about the Vacuum systems. So Vacuum twin pipes were the class 101 to 129
Vacuum single piped is for all passenger coaches Brake force 21" mercury Also applies to Vacuum braked fitted wagons.
For the others Air braked was for Loco hauled stock such as Mk2 Mk3 also Freightliner and modern freight stock. EPB eas 303-312 and Southern region slamdoor units.

Hope that the above makes sense, Think this is much the same as what Ian McMillan posted, Come to think of it,I'm pretty sure they are his wagons anyway.
So Keep calm and carry on Sir, You are doing a great job:) and if anyone does challenge you, just tell em to s*d off:P
Cheers
Andy
"The guard is the man that rides in the van, right at the back of the train.
The Driver up front thinks the Guard is a C**T and the guard thinks the driver is the same:P

rufuskins Fri 08 Apr 2016, 8:49 am

Donning a steel helmet and kevlar vest I carefully peer over the parapet and post a screenshot of a Diagram 48 Refrigerator Van.

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_d012

These are vacuum braked and the braking definition uses the recommended lines.

rufuskins Sat 09 Apr 2016, 9:29 am

I'm now back working on the wagons and the Diagram 49 Meat Van will soon be off the stocks. This will be followed by the Diagram 72 Fish Van and the Diagram 19 Cattle Van. That will complete the 10ft wheel base wagons, after which I might move onto either the bogie wagons or the 10ft 6in wheel base wagons.

rufuskins Tue 12 Apr 2016, 10:56 am

Diagram 49 completed with the addition of some handbrakes. Diagram 72 complete but textures are not quite right and need revision.

Rufuskins' Workshop LYR Wagons - Page 2 Lyr_d013

Diagram 19 needs some sketches re-doing as I have lost my earlier efforts!

35005CP Tue 12 Apr 2016, 5:27 pm

Hi Alec,

Does this link help at all? http://www.lyrs.org.uk/Wagons

All the best

Andy

rufuskins Tue 12 Apr 2016, 8:47 pm

Thanks for the link Andy, although being a member of the LYRS I was aware of the content. I am using Noel Coates's two volumes of LYR Wagons as my reference manual together with LYR Focus No 2 (Wagon Diagrams).

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