303/311s back into the workshop

After a much needed break, The 303/311s have finally gone in for an overhaul.

I've no idea how long this is going to take, but the *hope* is to do the following.

1) Alias all the units to glasgoworks' replacement cabs.

2) Work on the ENG and WAG files. Aim is to make the units less powerful.

& 3) Alterations to the models.

This is what I've been working on so far.


Obviously, the coach on the right is the new size. Only way to amend is in SFM as I don't have the original models, so the pantograph on centre coach will be slightly lower than the wire, but it's not an issue and the precedent has already been set (ie the various 313/314/315 models that Anton did a while back and MT's own 313).

The height and width were both reduced, but the coach length remains the same as it is correct.


Other alterations will be slight texture tweaks, nothing major. For instance, the all-blue end on the left unit is more realistic.


Updates will be sporadic due to that thing called 'real life' but I will post them when I have them.

Niall

"Real Life" can be a mixed blessing methinks! SFM can be a great aid for those final tweaks! I'm sure we can wait with patience albeit with bated breath!

Hi Niall,

What I can see is looking great, it might be my computer but I can see little or nothing of the coach on the right. Over on UKTS the pictures are fine.

I have taken a short break from Kenji's cabviews to create a short, simple activity for your route using a Class 156. This will soon be complete and uploaded in the next few days.

Regards,

Stephen

It's the way the forum displays the pictures, Stephen.

If you put your cursor over the pic, right-click on your mouse and highlight 'view image', you will see it full size.

Good luck with the act, as I said before it's always nice as a route author to see people writing acts for it.

Niall

Hi Niall,

Unfortunately when I right-click, the Show Picture option is greyed out, however using Save picture as... does work and I can view the whole picture in the selected folder. I will investigate the problem further at some point. Incidentally, Screenshots show up perfectly - such is life with a computer!!

regards,

Stephen

When I right click I then click on "Open image in new tab" which displays the image in all its glory!

This week I've started the job of altering the window frames on one of the the BR Blue units, swapping out the grey for a darker blue colour, which is how they should be.

It'll take a while, but at least when I've finished this unit, I'll be able to copy most of the textures into all the other BR Blue units.

I've also been testing the unit in acts and like how the smaller shape file looks when next to other trains.

Niall

Good to hear from your workshop, and look forward to seeing the finished articles.

Small update as have managed to get some free time to get into the "workshop".

I have finally got around to replacing all the window frames on 001, and that completes the texture work for the unit.

Now I'm going to start re-sizing the other BR Blue units and begin the task of replacing all the textures on those units too (thankfully some of the work is just copy and paste).

For those who like the 'head out cab view', a line has been added to all the units' ENG files (thanks to Alistair Cowell for that suggestion).

Just been running the unit around the route and sizing it up against other MSTS stock -- the resizing was definitely worth it!

That's all for now,

Niall

Ok, people, a wee update.

Here's a few pics from further work on the 303001. Texture mapping prevents some alterations, but I'm happier how it's looking and running. You will also see one of the new cabviews, which Alistair (Glasgowworks) built. Alistair is helping me with the project and I am grateful for his assistance.

Anyhow, the pics.

. . and very nice too!

Thanks Alec.

Getting rid of the grey window frames has made a huge difference to the units and Alistair's cab views are great.

Niall

Hi Niall,

As Alec has stated - a huge improvement on the earlier version and look forward to using them soon.

I do have one observation with the cabview - any chance that Alistair can remove the semi transparent part of the white needle? For me that would be a great improvement on his otherwise superb cabview.

Regards,

Stephen

StephenRWells wrote:Hi Niall,

As Alec has stated - a huge improvement on the earlier version and look forward to using them soon.

I do have one observation with the cabview - any chance that Alistair can remove the semi transparent part of the white needle? For me that would be a great improvement on his otherwise superb cabview.

Regards,

Stephen

I'll point him to this post and see what he says.

Update:

I've completed the work on the four BR Blue units (2x303, 2x311) and I am now testing them before I send over to Glasgowworks, who is helping me on the project.

Next up are the BR Blue-Grey units.

I've just started on the Blue-Grey units. Like the BR Blue variants, I'm altering the colour of the window frames (grey to white) on these units, as well as ENG/WAG modifications and re-sizing.



I've also got to replace the window that's next to the guard's compartment. It's not easy given that the texture it belongs to stretches the window size to fit the unit, but I'll try my best.


Niall[

They look like really good Models Niall!

Keep up the good work!

Cheers

Andy

Little update:

As long as no issues are found in testing, we're past the half-way point. 12 units are done and have been sent for testing, so there's 11 left to go.

After spending more hours on them than I should this last week *square eyes!*, most of the units have now had alterations.

All that's left to do are the BR refurbished units (3) and the Manchester versions (2). The latter are almost complete, just need their ENG/WAG files altered, while the former will be a little more tricky.





I'll hopefully get the remaining units complete by next weekend so I can put together a team to begin testing them.

Niall

Looking good!

Update:

I am grateful for the help of Alistair (glasgowworks) on this project, who among other things, has re-vamped the interior textures of all the units. Having had a chance to look through them, I am very impressed by what he's done, especially as the texture mapping of the interiors is a nightmare. I'm not able to post some pics at the moment but will do soon.

There's one more thing we're trying to do with regards to the unit's textures, but in the meantime I am running them through their paces. Now that they don't launch like a rocket, nor stop within a few feet, I'm having to learn to drive them all over again! It also means I made the right decision in not updating my V3 acts as a lot of timings will now need to change!

Niall

We wait with bated breath!

Hi Niall,

It will also be interesting to see how the new eng. files affect my activities. With a bit of luck in S - Glasgow_Crosshill_Newton Return the player timings should be ok as they were based on OR timings but ai timings are a mixture of both!

Looking forward to trying them on release,

Stephen

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=325&t=140837

Couple of cab pics over at UKTS Open Rails forum.

Niall

Been a bit of a break while I've been away from home but in my absence, Alistair (Glasgowworks) has been helping out.

As well as some texture work, Alistair has added a few re-skins of the Caledonian livery, for which I am grateful.

I'll be looking for some folk to test them shortly. If you want to help, get in touch via PM. (Priority will be given to those who've tested for me before.)

Niall

The Caley pack, for anyone who might want to consider an act set in the 60s, with a bonus unit on far right. The first three are from the 1960s showing three variations on the livery, the fourth is the celebrity unit, which was used around Glasgow in the early 90s (ideal for anyone planning a railtour act as it did quite a few of them!).

Looking good!

Fantastic work!

I've had some interesting feedback from someone in testing, just wondering if anyone could help with a couple of issues.

The adhesion values may need adjusting slightly as there is wheelslip at full throttle 15-28mph on a dry rail.

Should this be happening with an EMU? If so, any suggestions how I can sort it?

Also, is there any way you make it quicker for the units to load/unload at stations?

Finally, if there's anyone else who would like to do a bit of testing please get in touch.

Niall

NiallGray wrote:
Also, is there any way you make it quicker for the units to load/unload at stations?

From what little I know this is probably based on the "Passenger Capacity" line in the ENG/WAG file, and presumably suggests that the higher the passenger number the longer it takes to Load/Unload. Hopefully someone can confirm or otherwise this possibility?

NiallGray wrote:

The adhesion values may need adjusting slightly as there is wheelslip at full throttle 15-28mph on a dry rail.

Should this be happening with an EMU? If so, any suggestions how I can sort it?

According to Richter's "Manual" wheel slip relates to the first number in the "Adheasion" line, and he includes some formulae for calculating this and the other numbers in this line. This document can still be downloaded from Steam4me HERE - eighth one down. The section on adheasion starts at page 23 although there are some comments on page 12.

Hi Niall,

Also, is there any way you make it quicker for the units to load/unload at stations?

I believe this is "controlled" by a parameter in the platform properties, accessible using Activity Editor.

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Niall,

Loading/unloading time at stations is also dependent on "number of passengers" value set for each platform. The default is set in the Route Editor but each activity can have its own values by using the Activity Editor.

I too have had the wheelspin problem and my other problem reported in my earlier PM appears to be related to my activity not your units.

Regards,

Stephen

Hi guys.

Number of passengers at a platform is not what I'm after.

If I use an example. Say you have EMU A and at the platform it takes 30 secs to load/unload but EMU B takes 50 seconds to load/unload. The value set for number of passengers at the platform is the same.

So I'd be after why it takes longer for my units to load/unload than others units.

A quick look at the ENG/WAG files, I did not see a "Passenger Capacity" line (I'll check again properly later).

As for the adhesion, it's all double-dutch to me, but I will look at Alec's link later and see if it makes any sense.

Thanks for responses,

Niall

The line is normally written as

PassengerCapacity ( 52 )

where 52 - or whatever the actual passenger number is - is the number of passengers that can be accommodated in the unit.

Like many of the MSTS Eng/Wag files there doesn't seem to be a specific position within the file for this line.

It is not referenced in the MSTS Technical Documents but Richter makes a brief reference to it on page 40 of his manual.

Thanks Alec, I'll take a look this evening.

Niall

Hi Niall,

Also I am not sure if you know this or not, but you can set the number of passengers in Activity Editor. This is normally set to 20 by default.

Cheers

Andy

35005CP wrote:Hi Niall,

Also I am not sure if you know this or not, but you can set the number of passengers in Activity Editor. This is normally set to 20 by default.

Cheers

Andy

Yes I do, mate.

Cheers

Niall

The 303s regularly slipped. You could hear and feel it sitting above the power bogie in the guards van.
On a rush hour train to Neilston you would lose time if it rained.


MSTS will add a default PassengerCapacity of 60 to Type Carriage but not to the .eng file.
This means you are only loading the non powered vehicles.

Count the seats and add the PassengerCapacity line to each coach and the eng file.

ianmacmillan wrote:The 303s regularly slipped. You could hear and feel it sitting above the power bogie in the guards van.
On a rush hour train to Neilston you would lose time if it rained.
.

Did they slip in the dry though?

Tim Mitchell.

"Did they slip in the dry though?"

Yes.

The problem was that the driver was in an unpowered coach and had no way of knowing that he was slipping until he noticed the lack of speed. Even with wheelslip indicators, by the time they lit up it was too late to re-act.

The trick was to apply power slowly and watch the speedo for smooth acceleration.
Crosshill was the worst.

These units are starting to do my head in.

Been trying to read up on adhesion and failing to understand any of it, except that some people say it's got not do with the wheelslips, merely it's for sanding.

So I've been comparing my 303 ENG files to other 3-car emus' ENG files and I did notice that a line called "Antislip ( )" is missing from my units.

Could this be the answer? (I'm not near my computer to check it for myself).

Niall

Again referring to Richter's Manual (see Page 24) he recommends giving antislip a value of 1; i.e.

AntiSlip ( 1 )

and this line normally comes after the Adheasion lines.

He comments as follows:-

"When this parameter is used, the driving wheels will never slip and the maximum tractive effort will be determined by the combination of MaxForce, MaxContinuousForce, Adheasion and NumWheels."

Hope this helps.

Alec,

I tried Antislip and the wheels do not slip at all, in any conditions.

Do you know if it says anything about different values that could go in the brackets? Ie a value that there's no slip in dry, but perhaps rain and/or snow?

Niall

Look at this forum thread in Trainsim[dot]com HERE.
It appears to suggest that there may be a relationship between the NumWheels line and the use of AntiSlip, but also suggests that it doesn't matter what value you actually enter in the AntiSlip line!
I have always used the number of axles in the NumWheels line rather than the actual number of wheels - again this a recommendation in Richter's manual. The referenced thread seems to suggest that the higher the value for NumWheels the more likely you are to get wheel slip. I haven't carried out any tests so can't verify this one way or the other.
Obviously I'm no expert in this area but I suspect it's a question of trial and error?

Thanks Alec.

I had come to a conclusion and that link has helped me confirm what I am going to do.

I will be leaving the adhesion settings as they are. I have corresponded with a former Scotrail guy who was on 303s way back. He said he would never go immediately to 100% in the units as that would guarantee wheelslip, which confirms what Ian said in an earlier post. By applying power steadily, it will not slip and in testing this afternoon, I have confirmed the steady application works.

BUT I am going to add the Antislip line, only because it will help the performance of the AI units. Apparently the lack of the Antislip line will affect the AI units. I have noticed this especially in acts I've run in OR.

Most people want to just play the sim, but those who want the realism can just delete the Antislip line.

Niall

Pleased to hear that you have sorted out an approach. It seems to be like driving my car on our estate in the snow - engage 1st or 2nd and when it starts to move leave well enough alone!

Ok, I've added the passenger capacity lines and also the antislip to one unit, which I'm going to send to the testers. I managed to get the seating capacity for both the pre- and post-refurb units. Prior to the refurb the units had a much higher seating capacity so they will have less waiting time at stations.

I'll definitely need to tweak my existing acts to increase waiting times at stations as a result.

Niall

A question only for those who are interested in downloading the 303s/311s.

My ideal method of uploading would be to rebuild the installers for each set of units (as they are now), but I've got great demands on my time at the moment.

I was thinking of zipping up all the units (along with cab and sounds) into one file and uploading that way as it'll save a lot of time. I think the file is somewhere around 45-55MB in size.

So, those who want the units, here's where I would like your responses.

Would you prefer...

a) I zip up the unit folders, consists, cab and sounds into two folders called "Consists" and "Trainset". All you then have to do is unzip and place those two folders into your MSTS setup.

or

b) Wait for me to build installers for all the different units. (No idea when I can get around to doing this)?

I'd be very happy with solution (a), as that's how I upload my stuff.