SouthEast - route in progress

Thanks Mike. Incidentally, the last shot shows a little misalignment between the tunnel face and tunnel - this has been corrected now!

I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out.
Mike

I'd missed it too until I saw the shot. I think it pays to take plenty of screenshots while testing - this is not the first time it's highlighted a misalignment or similar fault.

Beginning to take shape at Sevenoaks....

. . and a very nice "shape" too!

Alec

A view at Tunbridge Wells Central..

dee4141 wrote:A view at Tunbridge Wells Central..

Now that looks great!

Approaching Sevenoaks Tunnel...

I note and appreciate the progress as illustrated on UKTS and continue to enjoy the screenshots.

Hi Danny,

I like the look of Ashford shed,and the collection of Loco's on shed,I hope you will still put your screen shots on this site as well as UKTS.

I'm so looking forward to getting this route when it comes out

Mike

Thanks for the support guys, It's appreciated.  I have the feeling that most are getting bored with my updates and it's probably all gone on for far too long. When I started out I didn't realise that it would take over 3 years to finish otherwise it's likely that I wouldn't have bothered. Anyone thinking of starting a route should take notice! Having said that I have no real regrets - other than picking the most difficult place possible to start the route - Admiralty Pier at Dover. Trying to place fences along the pier and see them disappear to the bottom of the seabed is very frustrating! But it's all part of the learning curve............and you do learn from experience. It's still too early to guess a date for completion, but I will be quite disappointed if I'm not able to race a Bulleid Pacific from Tonbridge down to Ashford by this time next year...... 

No boredom here Danny!

As you know, I am really looking forward to this route, so it is great to see new pictures as you progress.

Mike

Hi Danny,

No problems over the length of time it is taking you,most of us are patient and can wait,you just have to look at the time some of the other routes are taking.I think most of us would prefer to wait and have it done properly,than to have it rushed and then have numerous patches to fix faults.
My problem is I'm getting nearer to the 7 score years and 10 every day.

Mike

Thanks Mike and Mike.. 

This might be a good time to show the latest progress map. Green shows the areas that are virtually complete incuding scenery. Red shows the areas where scenery work has not started. All trackwork is complete. Geoff Forrest has made all of the signals and is currently in the process of finalising the signal installation. All stations are made with the exception of Westenhanger.

If anyone interested in the route has any questions on either the route or stock then feel free to ask - I'll do my best to answer them.

Hi Danny

You seem to have most of the loco's sorted out for the route,were the pannier tanks used on the Folkstone Harbour Branch during the time your route is set in?they are the only loco's I think might be missing,from the made and in the workshops for the route.

How are you doing for coaches it really calls out for some new Bulleids,I know the BATS ones are good even by to days standards and the other coaches are Maunsell,I wish I could do model making,but I can muck up an Airfix Kit.

If any one was interested in making these coaches I have 2 books on Southern Coaching stock I could lend them,they have diagrams and photo's.

Mike

Hi Mike

7 score years and 10 will be good going. 

Mike

Hi Mike,

The Panniers replaced the R1's in 1959 so they would be covered by the period of the route (1946-1962). I have no plans to make the GWR locos though.

With coaches, the current plan is to include Ian Morgan's MK1's as permission to include these in Community CD's has already been given. As you say, there are Maunsell and Bulleid coaches in the Library, but I need to check on permissions to use these. The Pullmans and French Wagon-Lits are a problem. We are not allowed to use BATS stock - or include them in activities - on a CD. Possibly Justin may have released his "Golden Arrow" coaches by then, but it looks as if any "Night Ferry" activities will need to wait until after the route is released.

dee4141 wrote:Thanks for the support guys, It's appreciated.   I have the feeling that most are getting bored with my updates and it's probably all gone on for far too long. When I started out I didn't realise that it would take over 3 years to finish otherwise it's likely that I wouldn't have bothered.  

Please note that far from being bored I get withdrawal symptoms when there is any sort of gap between news! I said on one of Clive's posts that I am absolutely fascinated as to how routes develop. Please continue, and I imagine it can perhaps help you focus on what needs doing and when. As I've said on other posts we all sometimes forget how much time and even parts of one's life gets put into these routes.

Should you chose to upload this route for our benefit then I for one will be very grateful.

The Panniers replaced the R1's in 1959 so they would be covered by the period of the route (1946-1962). I have no plans to make the GWR locos though.

Dee 4141 wrote:

The six panniers are all 5700 class in the 46xx number range. There are existing models of these by Frank Sandwell, Refman and TwoManyDJs all of whom are happy with reskins / renumbering.

This would make an excellent chance for someone to have a go at this for the first time. You preferably need Paintshop Pro but it can be done with MS Paint at a pinch.

mendes wrote:

The six panniers are all 5700 class in the 46xx number range. There are existing models of these by Frank Sandwell, Refman and TwoManyDJs all of whom are happy with reskins / renumbering.

This would make an excellent chance for someone to have a go at this for the first time. You preferably need Paintshop Pro but it can be done with MS Paint at a pinch.

Hi all, can I just add that if you do want to reskin/renumber or do whatever to a loco, that you seek permission from the person who created it in the first place. As I have done with Dave (Twomanydjs) and always ask to do so regardless of the person saying it is okay the first time. If anything it is only politeness and also make sure that all credit/s etc go to that person.
I think what Danny is saying is that if it is going out to the community (And correct me if I'm wrong) that this will be on CD with Acts and locos and reskins wouldn't be suitable for purchase? If this is for download also, he will have to seek permissions (A lot of) and give credit to a lot of people. So I think, going how Danny is going about it, gives the wider community more scope to add/interpret what they wish for Activities etc...
(I think and hope that makes sense)
Andy

This seems to have opened a can of worms - not what I intended at all.....

I'm hoping the route will go out on CD. This way the route, stock and activities are contained together. My understanding is that the requirement for permissions is more stringent when a route goes on CD as contributors in the past have strongly objected to their work being charged for, with the possibility of someone making a profit.

Andy is right that the Panniers could be reskinned as long as permission is given by the model author.

However it was decided some time ago not to include the Panniers in the stock pack for the route as I have never personally had a GWR interest. Of course anyone can run whatever they like once the route is released.

dee4141 wrote:This seems to have opened a can of worms - not what I intended at all.....

I'm hoping the route will go out on CD. This way the route, stock and activities are contained together. My understanding is that the requirement for permissions is more stringent when a route goes on CD as contributors in the past have strongly objected to their work being charged for, with the possibility of someone making a profit.

Andy is right that the Panniers could be reskinned as long as permission is given by the model author.

However it was decided some time ago not to include the Panniers in the stock pack for the route as I have never personally had a GWR interest. Of course anyone can run whatever they like once the route is released.

This isn't a can of worms, all I was saying was that I know from personal experience that the three people I mentioned would agree to reskins / renumbering of their models whether it would be for a UKTS upload or a community CD. It would also be a perfect project for someone to cut their teeth on reskinning / renumbering.

Obviously in either case the permission would have to be formally granted. I was only trying to impart some suggestions as someone whose knowledge of SR steam is minimal, but if they are not required then so be it.

A few of the latest screengrabs.....

Hello Danny,
The new screen shots look really good

Mike

More good work! Perhaps someone could look at the production of stock packs for relevant MPDs in, or related to, the route?

Perhaps someone could look at the production of stock packs for relevant MPDs in, or related to, the route?

There shouldn't be a need Alec. The route will go out with plenty of stock. Many models have already been made specifically for the route, and permissions have been sought for the inclusion of some existing models - some of these have or will be, reskinned too. After release there are plans to add additional stock items - for which there is already a growing list!

But is there ever really enough?      

But is there ever really enough?

There will always be some out there wanting more........but you're never going to please everyone. From the outset nearly 4 years ago, it was planned to produce a route together with a good range of suitable stock and activities as a complete package. I'm a bit like Andy with his Nine Elms project in that this route was something that I really wanted to do, so my work won't finish with route release. I will carry on working on additional stock for my own benefit initially, but they could be uploaded to the wider community depending on how the route is received and whether there is continued interest.

Dee4141-Well I'm going to put my "pennorth worth" in to this.I for one cannot wait for this route especially as its going to come as a complete item,being a person that cannot seem to get things to work,and not even knowing how to put a Consist together this IS for me.I've watched as its been coming along,and the Screenshots are just fantastic,so I feel that all praise must go to the people that can do these things.Just from what I've seen and read this is going to be a Fantastic add on  for MSTS,equal in quality to anything I've seen on other Sims. Thanks in anticipation

Hi

I think maybe the best thing to do is wait until Danny releases the route,and stock,afterwards a stock list could be made listing any missing items of loco's and stock that was used on the route pre electrification.I do like the idea of a stock pack though.

As for making stock for specific Depots\Sheds that will be a bit hard because loco's and stock moved around, I would imagine if you used 1949 or 1955 as a basis by 1959 \60 a lot of loco's would have moved away or scrapped,the same would go for rolling stock as well.

Hope this makes sense,having a bad health day to day
Mike

Roger, thanks for your comments. I can appreciate your position as I felt exactly the same when I first bought LSE - it was so easy to load up the DVD and then just start driving. With my first UKTS CD - Thames Mersey - it was the same, within a few minutes of installing the disc I was driving an Underground train - marvellous. This is what I want for SouthEast.

Mike, I think you're right that any stock packs should be made after route release, in this way there should be no duplication. I have tried to ensure from photos that all stock included actually ran in the SouthEast. There is a limit to how many locos can be included though, as it would prolong the timetable for route release. This is another reason why I'll be working on models afterwards.

I never thought my comment would promote this further discussion, and I'm not sure whether I've put my foot in it or stimulated worthwhile debate?

I merely floated this idea after seeing some of the recent UKTS stock pack uploads that related to MSTS routes, and after Andy's Nine Elms thoughts and my post on Nine Elms' 1960 allocation as a potential stock pack.

The saving grace to all this is that another excellent route complete with stock, etc. is on the horizon.

Hi Alec,

You starting this thread is a good idea,as it has stimulated debate over stock for the route,it also shows there is still a lot of interest in MSTS and also Danny's route.

The only pitfall I can see is making depot packs,as loco's rotated over the years,a lot just after electrification or just before went to the South Western Division or were scrapped,for arguments sake you did a pack for Stewarts Lane with a 1953 allocation,it wouldn't be much use for a activity set in 1959,by then the Britannia's had gone to the Midland region,The Wainwright D class had been scrapped.

Mike

You're perfectly correct but were I to pursue such an idea I would of course specify the year, in addition to which I would need to indicate which services they were used on. These thoughts were all generated by my dearth of knowledge in this respect that would enable me to create a reasonable activity for any route. However I believe that this particular subject should not be pursued any further on Danny's thread from now on.
Danny, I apologise for creating this diversion.

Not really a diversion Alec, I welcome any discussion on SouthEast as it means there's still some interest out there! Personally I've run very few activities in the last few years - for obvious reasons! - so have never downloaded a stock pack. But I understand they're there to provide a range of stock for potential activities - mainly on long mileage routes. Mike has quite rightly pointed out that there are difficulties in basing a stock pack on MPD's, and this is true for South East. Although there's a pretty good chance that you'd be OK with Dover MPD, for Tunbridge Wells West for instance you could easily make some incorrect assumptions.

As mentioned previously, I've tried to ensure that only models of locos that definately ran in the SouthEast have been included, but to give some idea, the stock list currently includes 6 Schools, 5 Unrebuilt WC/BoB, 6 Rebuilt WC/BoB, 3 new KA's, 3 C Class, 4 N, 4 R1 and so on....

Initially I don't think there is a requirement for an additional stock pack, but once the route is released then of course users are free to do whatever they like.

Looking great Danny and I really can't wait to try your route out! The work you've done on it is phenomenal!!!  
How is progress so far; as in how much more work left to be done? - I'm not trying to get a timescale, I just love seeing the progress your making.

Hi Andy, Thanks for asking....Currently all track is complete, all signals complete, all built-up areas complete, but still around 20 miles of countryside that needs to be scenarised. Should start adding station names and siding names etc in the next week (these were added before but all were lost with a TDB crash), then milestones and sounds ( still need to find out about these), and water columns and coal stages. Still need to do Seasonal Textures and Snow Textures. Something like 70% of the loco stock is complete but there is one being built (slowly) and one more to do after that.

Coaling at Ashford...

Ah you can't beat a bit of manual labour. Mind you just to be a critical so and so I wouldn't object to a couple of knee braces under that platform!

They are there Alec, they just don't show up very well! 

   Obviously the "eyes" don't have it!    

Hi Danny.
                Yes I'm still breathing and still using MSTS, occasionally, but I have a new woman in my life, since loosing my wife a few years ago, so quite a lot of my time is taken with the real world again. Never the less, I am still following your progress on this excellent route and I am eagerly awaiting it's release. You are making such a good job of it, that it will become a very firm favourite with the majority of people who just love steam era routes like myself. Anyway Danny keep up the good work my friend. I will be poping in again before Christmas to catch up on any more news.

Regards

Good to hear that we haven't "lost" you Geoff, and agree there's still a real world out there once you turn off the PC.  Although there's around 20 miles of scenery to complete yet, the route is now being tested, so progress continues to be made.

Hi guys and first let me say how much I look forward to this route!  I'm also enjoying all the great new models being produced for Southern Region in the immediate post war era.

Just a few thoughts on posts so far.

Locomotive depot codes!  Nice to have them of course but "rivet counting" about what was based where is, how can I put this politely?, a bit silly?  Before you take offense I say that because REAL LIFE is ever evolving.  Things change and certainly did change between 1946 and 1962?  As I was born in 1946 I speak with "Authority" on that   .  We had this debate about diesel numbers in the stock pack for MEP and my research (loads of excellent sites regarding various classes and the individual loco's histories) showed that many loco's changed depots frequently whilst a handful stayed at one depot for the majority of their operational lives.  That aside...  MSTS is FROZEN in TIME.  MEP like this route was based around an era (roughly 1967-87) and during that time there was SO much development and change in the use of stock, type of signalling and even electrification of sections.  there's no useable way that MSTS can replicate that?  Once you accept that all you can do is provide a stock pack that allows prototypical operations at various times during that era?

That brings me on to Permissions.

It was my task to obtain permissions for MEP.  NOT ONE PERSON refused.  In fact some of you here made stuff specifically for the route where it didn't exist!  Folk who were not contactable (we were told....) could not have their stuff used.  This wasted a lot of time re-skinning and re-numbering other folks models ...only to have the non contactable folk pop up and say "Sorry been away, just got your PM and of course feel free to use any of my stuff".

There seems to be, in certain quarters, an assumption that the reverse is true? i.e. that most folk will NOT allow permission to have there stuff used?  this is NOT my experience.

As well as the BATS Southern Region disc there is the MT LSE route and stock.  Both good in their day (?) ...but they are pre BIN and frankly some of the stuff being produced as freeware now is as good or better?  Much of the electric stock of your era still has some of the better models in the MT LSE route and obviously that can never be included on a UKTS disc.  However I see no reason whatsoever that it should not be recommended as being an essential part of "the stock required" to run activities for this route?  It does mean that they couldn't be included on a UKTS disc but my question then is......    "IS that the best way to release the route?"

I don't want to start a quarrel about UKTS Route discs and their why's and wherefore's.  Merely to point out that there are plenty of massive routes released over on trainsim.com which have stock and activity packs to go with them.  Obviously that's a drawback for folk with poor internet connections but ts.com has never issued anything on disc so folk expect to download it.  This also gets round some of the (IMO silliness) issues about permissions.

Interestingly Diesels West, Streamlines and BLW have now all produced stock packs for freeware US routes.  Sadly of course BATS split up means that no such package can ever be produced.  The LSE route and stock from MT however is no dearer than an individual stock pack anyway.  

As I said just a few thoughts...  Basically my general advise would be make the route you want rather than the one a UKTS disc will accept?

I'm in the middle of that nightmare called "trying to move" at the moment so can't offer much real help but keep up the good work.

Cheers

Geoff

Hi Geoff,
I don't know why you are so against releasing this route on a disc personally some of us prefer the disc method since my stroke I have real difficulty trying to install down load content,and I know the same with some of the other older members prefer the disc option.
It so much easier for us just put the disc in the disc drive click run and it all gets installed.

Or is due to what some one said on a certain page on UKTS

Mike

Hi Geoff,I've got to agree with Mike on this one.I too am not in full fitness and add to that,that I never manage to get any of the downloads working (my fault I know,but there you have it) my lifeline to MSTS is the community Cds.Without the prospect of any new ones being put sad to say I will probably have to Abandon ship,as I already have most of the Cds,which are a bit Elderly now.....Roger

In my opinion, in that ideal world, both options should be available. However it should always be remembered that any new route made available to the wider community is based on the generosity of the route creator/owner. If they then chose to provide relevant stock in whatever form that takes, be it self generated, existing stock repainted with permission or recommended stock from another source, then that is their prerogative! We have no right to expect everything to be just so for our own benefit.
I have always been, and will remain, extremely grateful that within the train simulation community there are those who are prepared to share their work.

Hi guys,

I'm not "So Against" discs at all.

I do think that the restrictions that being able to include some payware items is one of the downsides of them?

There is absolutely no reason that a downloaded route should not be as easy to install as anything on a disc.  Several payware publishers in North America provide everything as downloads now but the route packs come with Route, Stock and Activity installers just as they do on UKTS discs.  Obviously individual creators might need help with that but what's great about our hobby and the community is that there will be some one to do that?

There is no politics or UKTS bashing in this.  I'm just pointing out that UKTS is one of the few of dozens of Trainsim Sites that actually produce disks of any kind.

The only thing I did see on UKTS that I thought was daft was the idea that the Bullied coaches could not be included because the creator was not contactable.

Flight Simming is older than Train Simming and the libraries go back even further.  The common practice over there, which strikes me as being far more sensible, is to credit all previous contributors to an upload (common courtesy) and where they have not been contactable to state that IF anyone objects to the use of their stuff to contact the library who will immediately remove it.  The folk in the FS community who share free stuff do so to support the hobby just as we do here?  The only squabbles I ever saw on their forums were where there was blatant theft of material with no credit to the original author.  Totally understandable?

If the creator of the Bullied stock isn't delighted that someone is creating a route where his efforts can be run I'll be utterly amazed   

Since I started Alec has pointed out that there's no reason why you shouldn't have both disc and download?  I quite agree that we've no right to expect stock packs and activities but one thing a stock pack does avoid is hours of searching out and downloading individual items (often mis-spelt or wrongly named) or even worse finding that someone has withdrawn an item for whatever reason.

Geoff

Hi
I have a feeling this year could prove to be the last year for me as far as MSTS goes, I have tried some of the new down load routes and just can't get them work.
I was so looking forward to Danny's route I have been following the progress from when he first started,especially with it's own loco's and stock,and also Ian making new Bulleid and Maunsell Coaches to go with it, and the activities that have been created.

What ever method Danny uses I will give it a try and see if I can get it work.

MSTS has come a long way in the 10 years I have had and would like to thank every one from the early days through to to day with out you all it wouldn't be the sim it is now.

Thank You All

Mike

 I was very surprised to see so much debate about my route - at least it shows it's not been forgotten - and it's nice that fellow simmers are taking an interest!

Let me first of all say that the route was always from Day 1 intended to be released on a UKTS DVD. Like a lot of others I do prefer to have a stock pack along with a route as it makes everything so quick and simple to load. So over the last 4 years that the route has been in build then so has much of the stock.

The route is set in the Period 1945 - 62 and this covers quite a few variations of models and liveries, and I realised late last year that it was just too much to cover in a single release, so the route as released will have stock for the Period 1957 onwards. (Phase 1). This will be followed ( eventually) by two stock Downloads - Phase 2 1949-1956 and Phase 3 1945 -1949.

Some of you will have seen my posts of Bulleids in Southern Railway Malachite, so you'll know that Phases 1 and 2 are already underway.

Just picking up on some of the points touched on...........yes, many of the models have shed plates, and in most cases they have been researched to ensure accuracy at some time during the period of the route, but there's no way we can make separate models to cover each shed a loco may have moved to. So we've tried to be accurate, but there are limits.   In the same way we've tried to ensure that only locos that actually ran in the SouthEast have been included.

I've started to use the term "we".......this is because I've had a lot of help along the way and this is still continuing. I've asked most people for permissions to use their work and have not been refused so far. I've had people offer to help and this has been accepted when appropriate. I've also asked people to help with certain tasks and they've invariably put themselves "out" for me. So you can see it's been very much a Community venture.

At present the route is still not complete. There remains around 15 miles of countryside to be "scenarised", Seasonal textures to be made, and an evergrowing "To do" List of minor jobs. Activities are being written and tested, and these in turn are highlighting errors or shortcomings in the route - but then this is what the Testing Phase is all about.

Finally, I hope this has answered a lot of questions, but if you have more then you just have to ask!