Snowdon mountain railway which Trainset?

Good evening everybody,

Here I am again with another question: where can I find  appropriate Rolling Stock,  UKTS being closed? I have several steam narrow gauge locos in my Trainset, but none with  cog system, and none that can tackle the slope even on its own.  
Thanks in advance

Hi Riccardo,
From Trainsim.com :
File ID 5535 or 68720 - contains 4 locos and one carriage - uses XTracks narrow gauge track
File ID 5585 or 68719 - same as above but with x2 stock to allow use on default MSTS track
File ID 32154 - v5 - seems to be updated version of 5535.

Obviously, they are built for MSTS so I cannot give any opinion on how they'll run in Open Rails!

Cheers,
Ged

Hi all,
thanks a lot for the prompt response; but unfortunately no loco seems to have the sufficient power  to climb up to the summit. When the train arrives near the first station it looses power (steam pressure in the boiler is ok) and falls back even with emergency brake applied. This happens with each loco among the downloads indicated , even with two of them on push!
Am I doing something wrong?
Thanks in advance and please apologize my English.
Best Regards

Hi Riccardo,
No. you're not doing anything wrong!!
I've just tried with Enid and one coach and it didn't move very far!

I opened the .eng file, and changed line 431 from IsTenderRequired ( -1 ) to IsTenderRequired ( 0 )
This time the loco did move 'better', but the driving wheels were 'spinning' even when the sander was used. I think changes might be required to the 'Adheasion' and/or 'Friction' and/or the wheel radius entries.

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged,
I have already changed "adheasion" parameters increasing them 10 times, with no results. Wheelslip slip has of course stopped, but one cannot anyway reach the first station (the train "falls back").
I will try with the other parameters.

Thank you... I'll write again soon.

Hi Riccardo,

The engines are avaible on David Forrest's page:
https://tsshonline.weebly.com/dforrest.html

It has been a few years now, but these are the engines that I use during the pre-release testing.
It does take some effort to get up the mountain but I did manage to do quite a fair few trips.

On David's page there is also the route patch and some stock test activities.

Regards,
Justin

Thanks, Justin,
I never thought of looking in the TSSH library!!

The biggest problem is that unless it is known who uploaded a particular file, it can be difficult to find.
What we could do with is a search system similar to that used by trainsim.com where the user can enter a file name, partial file name or UKTS file ID. This last item may be problematic, for example, none of my files has a file ID!

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged,

Easy enough done forgetting about TSSHFH! It has only been around a short time.

I have just had a play with adding a search bar to the site.
Yes, it does work and can find things like a normal search bar, however when you click in it, it does not take you directly to the file,
Which would mean that I would have to manually set up a page for every file.
I will need to see of I can code in someting more suitable.

Regards,
Justin

Nothing to do...   not even with David Forrest's files...I give up....mount Snowdon can wait to be climbed by me by  train.
Thanks everyone for your interest

Yep, 200 mph back as the base terminus after trying to go to the top.
Jonathan

Hello all, Hello Justin, yes I also used to make it to the Summit in MSTS,lovely little route (I still have it but don't use it as the faults the others have explained.)

I'm sure its down to trying to run it on Open Rails. You can leave Llanberis but not get up the Hill, Starting from the Top  nothing will stop you from doing in excess of 100mph.

Running it on ORNYMG 149.4    from Llanberis  you cannot even leave the Station as it crashes, from the Summit there's still no Brakes.
But anyway thanks for the Route, it was really a pleasure and achievement when you made it to the top. Neanderthal.

I'm rather surprised (when looking back through my Posts)  that I made it to the the Summit  last September (11-2023)
So it must have been in Open Rails. 141 ! 
Certainly wish I could do it again now.

I am going through my records and trying to see why this is happening. When using Open Rails, I also cannot run up the first hill.

Hi All,
As Patric posted in the MSTS Forum, all my testing/checking has been done in MSTS.

After my first unsucessful tests, I reread the documentation which indicates that the loco should always be facing up the mountain.  After fixing that, and changing 'IsTenderRequired ( -1 )' to 'IsTenderRequired (0)' things were a little better, but using the First Station to Llanberis path, I couldn't even get to the "Halfway Platform" ('Enid' pushing the one coach).  I hadn't applied any changes to the 'Adheasion' and 'Friction' values.

Having examined the .eng file, I found that the WheelRadius values were the wrong way around!
That in the (upper) 'Wagon' section should be WheelRadius ( 0.12m ) and that in the 'Engine - Wagon' section should be WheelRadius ( 0.275m ). However, I changed this to ( 0.347m )  to be nearer the 'real' size.
Now, I can easily get to the 'Halfway Platform' - in fact, the problem is to keep the speed to 5mph!!

David's re-issued (v5) of the stock also contains the same .eng file errors, which apply to all 4 locos.
I also changed the 'Sanding' value to ( 3mph ) because I felt that ( 1e9mph ) was nonsense, but didn't need to use it in my short test.

A propo Roger's comments regarding the brakes, I think, even in MSTS, they need fixing.  Also, even though no onscreen message is given, the Engine Brakes have to be released before it'll move.

From Rudolf Richter's Eng Manual, the NumWheels values should really refer to the number of axles - that in the upper Wagon section referring to all axles and that in the lower Engine - Wagon section, only the driven axles,  These have an effect on friction and braking.

Cheers,
Ged

Thanks for all your hard work Ged, but I knew about the Engine Brake bit as it shows up on the Monitor.
I must admit I cannot remember ever coming down Snowdon in MSTS,in fact I only appear to have had  the one Act using Enid to chug up the hill.

I'm not to sure about my capability when it comes to changing (or even finding ) the correct files to change, though I may D/L another SMR and have a bash.
Ged, on my PC Enid is facing up the Mountain, the Carriage is not connected to the Coach I believe (in actual fact ,though I'm not sure).


Also many thanks to D Forest, Its still a lovely little route,and I love Enid LOL.

Hi Roger,
That's where Open Rails can be a little more helpful than MSTS!

As for finding the file to change, that's easy! There's only one - for Enid, it's smr_enid.eng.  Of course, it really helps if you've set Windows Explorer to show file extensions.  Open it in NotePad, or any other Unicode-aware editor (I recommend NOT using WordPad).

Cheers,
Ged

Hi All,
Having looked at the cabview of Enid, I saw that the Train Brake handle wasn't moving.  I've able to fix that, after a fashion (!).

Another problem is that the settings for the Engine Brake aren't shown.  There is no graphic for it in the cabview, but I'm sure I read, a very long time ago, that it's possible to also show this. If I made a note, I'm not able to find it!
I have had very limited success in that I now show its 'flag' (at the bottom of the screen) when '[' or ']' is pressed but the value is always  -1%.  Can anybody please tell me what I am missing??

Thanks

Cheers,
Ged

Please note that I am not the actual author of the route. This is Doug Kightley. I assisted in preparing it for download.

Ged, can you make your modification available? Perhaps we should make the route available on GitHub.

Hi David,
Thanks for your reply, but it doesn't really answer my question. However, see below!

I think using GitHub for a very old MSTS-only route, the quality of which nowhere matches that of those already available there, is a bit OTT!!
As far as I am aware, there is only one route update. If and when I can get the stock/cabviews sorted, that'll only be another 4.eng files and 4 .cvf files. There are unlikely to be any further updates!
I consider it preferable for you to update the files already on your page in the TSSH library, which I'll be pleased to supply.

Regarding my query, I might have found the answer in a loco in my long-abandoned narrow gauge route!! Obviously, I still need to check where I've gone wrong!

Cheers,
Ged

Hi,
UPDATE
I've not got both Brake indicators showing and the Train Brake handle rotates - That's the positive news!!

I STILL cannot get up to Clogwyn from Halfway Platform.

Looking at the .eng file, the MaxPower ( 15500kW ) and MaxForce ( 32150lbf ) seem very high when compared with Scotsman ( 1500kW and 26927lbf respectively )
I have reverted to the original driving wheel radius of 0.275m in the hope that smaller diameter will give greater tractive effort, but to no avail - that probably only happens in real life!!.

If members have been able to drive this route before, using MSTS,  I MUST be doing something wrong
However, things could be worse! I can't even get the driving wheels to rotate in Open Rails and the whole train just slides down the hill!!

I'm next going to look at the locos of the Zig-Zag railway (Coals to Newcastle website) to see if I can learn any more.

Cheers,
Ged

Hello Ged, you said "Open it in NotePad, or any other Unicode-aware editor (I recommend NOT using WordPad).".

I'm sure it's me but I cannot seem to find the ones I'm meant to change ? so will wait a while longer.
Are there  better options than Note Pad ( that are easy to d/l onto my PC) please.  Neanderthal.

Hi Roger,
The file you need to change is  smr_enid.eng which is in the TRAINSET folder.
NotePad is integral part of Windows - if you've got WordPad, there's no reason why you don't have NotePad (unless you've deleted it!!)
Right-click the Windows START button, select 'Run' and in the 'Open' box, enter  'notepad' (without the quotes!) followed by Return (or just press OK).
If you want to use a 3rd party (free) Unicode editor, I recommend ConText - https://www.contexteditor.org/ .  Many users favour NotePad++ (https://notepad-plus-plus.org/).

I don't recommend using WordPad because on some occasions, I've found that it doesn't retain the format of the original file.

Cheers,
Ged

Hi,
UPDATE 2
Zig Zag railway was no help because it uses standard gauge 'normal' steam locos!

Looked at 'Adheasion'  This, basically, controls how the steel wheels react with the steel rails in various circumstances.  It's involved with the progress of the train, together with its braking.
The Snowdon is a rack and pinion railway where, as far as being driven is concerned, there's always 100% adhesion (ie pinion/s engage with the rack).  Braking, as far as I know, still depends on the steel wheels on the steel rails.  

Changing the 'Adheasion' parameter to ( 2.0 2.0 2.0 0 ), I was able to get to the Summit station.  Braking seems OK although keeping to 5mph is quite difficult; it's possible that the MaxPower is too high, as I mentioned before.  There doesn't seem to be much technical information available for these locos but, next, I'll be reducing that value.  Coming down the mountain is still rather hairy, but one step at a time!!

If you want to try with all my modifications, please send me your email address in a PM, but PLEASE NOTE, this is for MSTS ONLY!!  In Open Rails, the loco moves for a few feet then stops but I've not bothered to check why (yet) as Patric seems to be using MSTS.

Cheers,
Ged

I was recommended ConTEXT for editing files. It has the advantage that you can ask to move to a particular line.
No commercial connection.
Jonathan

Hi All,
UPDATE 2a (!)
I have left my UPDATE 2 post in situ because the details in it, together with those from my previous posts, do enable the train to get to the top of the mountain.

However, while investigating further, I found that the loco physics in the updated pack (UKTS_32154) are TOTALLY different to those in the original pack (UKTS_5535), not just slightly modified! This might explain why some users were, originally, able to successfully reach the summit without changing any files.

I have not been able to locate the specifications of the original locos, so have to assume that the original author may have had access to them, or at least, made best guesses.  I mentioned previously that the MaxPower value for 'Enid' in the updated pack (15500kW) is higher than that of the default Flying Scotsman (1500kW) which is unreasonable.  Of course, it could be a mis-type, but has been applied to all 4 locos.

Each of the updated .eng files contains revised lights and air brakes instead of vacuum brakes. I'm going to test, retaining these but with the original  engine physics (boiler, cylinders, power, etc) to see if anything works better.
If anybody has documentation for these locos, or can help with any information, I'd be pleased to hear it

Cheers,
Ged

Hi All,
UPDATE 3
Sorry for the delay in replying, but I've been doing a lot of testing!!

The basic result is that, although there are some 'bad parameter values' in the 'Enid' .eng file, I have successfully run this loco and its coach from Llanberis to Summit.
The 'trick', if you can call it that, is that you must run the loco properly.  This means constantly juggling the regulator and cut-off positions, depending on the terrain, in order to keep the steam usage rate not higher than the steam generation rate. These last two values may be displayed while running the sim, by pressing F5 3 times, so that white printing appears on the screen.  The column on the right contains all the relevant information, including the most important boiler pressure - if this goes too low, the loco stops!!
HINTS : If the speed is over 1 mph, set the cut-off to 55% or 45% (maybe even 30%). Only when starting and very low speed should 75% be used.  The regulator should not be at 100% except when absolutely necessary - use the minimum needed to keep the loco moving. Using these values will help to reduce steam usage and, thus, maintain the boiler pressure.

Cheers,
Ged

Hi,
I've now made modifications to the 'Enid' .eng file which has enabled me to drive up and down (very carefully!) Snowdon.

I have also changed the cabview so that the Train Brake lever is animated and the Engine Brake label is shown on-screen.

If you wish to check it out, please send me your email address by PM, BUT, please note, that these files ONLY work in MSTS.  I've passed the files on to another more OR-savvy member in the hope that a solution can be found for running in that sim.

Cheers,
Ged

If anyone is interested I am currently testing Enid in OR and so far have just got it to run up to Hebron with the single carriage. This is using specific OR data that replaces the MSTS equivalents in places and adds some new ones to the mix. There is also a new initiative underway to try and define a rack locomotive as such in the game instead of relying on adhesion as at present/

Mervyn

Thank you Mervyn, I'm pretty sure this will be of interest to us.

That would be good for the Swiss rack lines too.
Jonathan