Running MSTS under Windows 8

Hi All,
With Windows 8 becoming more common (I won't say popular!), it's important to try and resolve any difficulties encountered.

Most users who are running NVidia graphics cards seem to have no problems, whereas it appears that for the majority of those using AMD/ATI cards MSTS is a no-go For these users, MSTS almost immediately reports "train.exe has stopped working"; I say 'almost immediately' because if a default setup is used, which requires the CD to be in the drive, the message requesting the CD is displayed after which MSTS stops working.

The latest beta version (13.2) of the AMD drivers has been tried, together with 12.10, 12.11 beta and 13.1, all without success.

I reported this on the AMD forum : http://forums.amd.com/game/categories.cfm?catid=443&entercat=y ; there was only one other report for MSTS, which probably shows just how popular our simulator is
The actual posts are here :
http://forums.amd.com/game/messageview.cfm?catid=443&threadid=163431&highlight_key=y&keyword1=MSTS
I have also completed their feedback form, but, to date, have had no reply.

I have done extensive research both on uktrainsim.com and trainsim.com, and it's on-going, but up to now have not found anything which helps. There's virtually nothing on Elvas Tower!

Please post your experiences of MSTS with Win 8 with particular emphasis if using an AMD/ATI graphics card, good or bad. I think it may be a driver problem, but am open to all suggestions. If you could give the full specs of your PC when posting, it may help to create a picture of what does, and doesn't, work.
I have carried out my own tests on a PC with the following specs :
Motherboard : ASUS M4A79XTD EVO
Processor : AMD Phenom II x2 550 (3.1GHz)
BIOS : AMI 2102
RAM : 4GB DDR3
Graphics Cards tested : AMD Radeon HD5450, 5750 & 6870; NVidia 8800GT

Cheers,
Ged

Hi All,
An update!
I have tested 13.4 and 13.5 beta versions of the Radeon drivers, but MSTS still "stops working" under Windows 8 64 bit

AMD have issued a Catalyst Uninstall Utility - I used this before installing each new version of the drivers. I also tried MSTS after the un-installation and before a new one was installed, but with no luck!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NVidia have issued drivers version 310.90 - I will re-test with my 8800GT card and report back (this card worked previously with 302.82 drivers).

[This is a copy of a post made tonight on UKTS but is included here for continuity!]

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged,
Being very un-knowingly 'lucky', I bought this new computer JUST before W8 came out. I breathe a sigh of relief .

Keep up the good research.

Hopefully someone will find it useful, but i'm keeping my fingers, etc crossed that my need to delve into the depths of W8 will be un-necessary.
Cheers
Clive

Oh my aching head . . . . . !!!!!

Mind you we are having problems here at work, where a piece of software works fine on XP (the OS on my works' laptop), but does not work properly on Windows 7! It is thought to be a compatibility problem; but really goes to show how the software/hardware people are always behind the development of OSs.
Presumably Windows 9+ is already on the stocks, although it wouldn't surprise me if something completely different appears!
It would appear that if you want to run MSTS Windows 7 is as far as you can go - unless someone knows different?

Alec

Hi Gentlemen,
This is to confirm that MSTS still works with my NVidia 8800GT card under Win 8 using the latest (310.90) drivers I know this card is a few generations old, so would like to hear that anyone using a more current card isn't having similar problems to those we're having with those from AMD.

I did have a scare that it didn't work, but put it down to my "messing around" with some files within MSTS Re-installing MSTS restored me to an even keel However, it may be useful to others to record the error message I got - it is not mentioned on the steam4me site! Just after starting Explore, or an activity, on any (default) route the following message was shown : "Failed to load forest desc file" ; clicking OK caused MSTS to shut down immediately.

Cheers,
Ged

Hi There,

Having had a laptop with Windows8 installed with AMD/ATI graphics chips. I could not run MSTS or the editor although Route-riter was able to test the installation and rolling stock for errors. Under these conditions OR (Open Rails) was able to load up and run ok.

I have waited for graphics drivers updates but no success.

So I threw baby out of the window with the bathwater and I Installed a copy of Windows 7

After a few screen scaling issues which are now sorted out MSTS runs very nicely thank you.

Mick

Hi Mick,
I'm sure you won't regret it - I have no problems with Windows 7

Regarding Windows 8, I learnt yesterday that Microsoft are issuing v8.1 later this year with various fixes, which will be free to all current Win 8 users. Also, a public preview will be available from the end of June, again for no charge, so I'm hoping that one of the fixes will enable us to run MSTS ... but I'm not holding my breath!

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged,

For what it is worth, I use good old XP. I changed the name of the forests.dat file and I got the "Failed to load forest desc file" followed by a shut down.

Regards,
Chris

Hi Chris,
Thanks for your comment
That was my first thought, but I hadn't, knowingly, changed anything other than swapping from an AMD/ATI graphics card to an NVIDIA one, along with their drivers. As it was on my Win 8 Testing PC with only default MSTS, a re-install wasn't a big undertaking and solved the problem. If it recurs, then I'll start an investigation!

Cheers,
Ged

Hi All,
This is a slightly edited version of my post on UKTS today.

Here is my latest update - and it's not looking very good for ANY MSTS users running Windows 8

AMD have issued a new beta version of their driver - 13.8 Beta - but I'm sorry to say that MSTS still displays the "Stopped Working" message.
I have also tested it with the Windows 8.1 Pro Preview, but the results are just the same.

As I hadn't recently tested using the nVidia 8800GT card, I thought I'd have another look at it.

I installed the latest Win 8 drivers and started MSTS. IT RETURNED STRAIGHT TO THE DESKTOP, without any message.

To cut a long story shorter, I tested using 12 sets of drivers - 1 was not compatible (my fault, I shouldn't have downloaded it!), 7 returned to the Desktop and 4 ran successfully.
There are many drivers out there, but the ones I picked were designated suitable for Win 8. The latest successful version was 306.97, dated 2/10/2012. Looking for later versions, 307s weren't for normal desktops and there are no 308s or 309s. The next one I tested was 310.90, but that crashed.
The other nVidia drivers which worked successfully were 302.82, 302.86 and 306.23.

It's just possible that, as my nVidia card is several years old now, it MAY be the cause of the problem, but I doubt it - the drivers ALL state that the 8800GT is supported.

The above tests have been carried out with Windows 8 Pro 64 bit and Windows 8.1 Pro Preview 64 bit, there being no difference between them as far as MSTS is concerned.

Apologies for the dismal news, but I felt it should be made known. Any further information, from AMD and nVidia users would be most welcome, especially confirmation of driver versions which are successful/unsuccessful.

At least Open Rails runs OK under both versions of Win 8  

Cheers,
Ged

Ged
Thank you for the update which I hope makes things clear in terms of the current relationship between MSTS and Windows 8.

Hi All,
Here's another update!

Following my problems with the Nvidia 8800GT graphics card and posts in various places from users successfully running Win 8 with the latest Nvidia drivers, I've purchased a cheap(ish) more modern card. It's a GT 620 with 2GB of GDDR3 memory. I wouldn't want to run MSTS regularly with it, but it's fine for testing.

Using the latest (full release) drivers, 326.01, whatever, and however many, parameters I included in the Nvidia Control Panel, I couldn't make MSTS crash - which is a very good thing!!

I reverted to the 8800 GT card and ran several tests, most of which crashed. However, I found that if the Anti-aliasing was set to "Application controlled", it didn't crash. This seemed a little odd, so I replaced the drivers with version 302.82, and, irrespective of what parameters I threw at it, MSTS didn't crash. I considered that, because the 8800 GT only had 512MB of memory, it may have some bearing on its performance, but this was disproved when I tested it with exactly the same parameters I'd used for the GT 620.

My conclusion is that modern Nvidia graphics cards DO run MSTS successfully under Windows 8. It could be that my 8800 GT is faulty in some way, although I can't imagine what!

Final thought (for now) on the 8800 GT - graphics cards have their own BIOS chips. If I can find out exactly what mine has, it may be updateable! Stay tuned  

Cheers,
Ged

Hi All,
I have now tested MSTS under Windows 8 with AMD drivers 13.9 (23/07/2013) and 13.10 betav2 (20/09/2013), but have no good news - Sorry

In order to prove that nothing carried over from previous installations is causing the problem, a clean install of MSTS was made under the latest updated Win 8. Also, previous versions of the AMD drivers were completely removed.

Regarding the BIOS on the Nvidia 8800GT - I found that the only files available were those uploaded by other users. This made me a little wary, so I haven't followed that path ... yet!

Cheers,
Ged

Hi All,
I have been reporting on my (mis)adventures attempting to run MSTS with AMD drivers under Windows 8 & 8.1 for just over a year now - doesn't time fly?  

MSTS has always failed with the "stopped working" message, and this also applies to the latest drivers - 14.2 Beta v1.3 with an issue date of 12 March 2014.

I think it's time to accept the fact that AMD won't be changing anything to help MSTS, so this is my final report, unless the IMPROBABLE happens !!

If anyone finds, or develops, a work-around, then please post in this thread, but I won't be holding my breath    

Cheers,
Ged

Whilst it has never been my intention to move from W7 to W8, I would still like to thank you for your efforts in this area and I am sure that this is echoed by others.

Many thanks, Alec

Hi All,
I've been working with Stephen (sbowness) after he reported low frame rates when running Woodhead v4.2 under Windows 8.1 with an NVIDIA 750 graphics card.
I ran the same activity under Windows 7 and 8.1, using exactly the same MSTS installation with the same display settings, using the latest graphics drivers (347.52).  Also, the same NVIDIA Control Panel settings were used.  The main difference is that he is running a "plain" 750 whereas I am running a 750Ti 2GB overclocked ASUS model.
The following shows the results :

Where there's a slash between numbers, the first is the frame rate approaching the station and the second is that on leaving.
The AMD HD7850 results are there as a comparison between my "normal" graphics system and the NVIDIA card under Windows 7.
The activity used is :  Manchester Hadfield 506 1981 as supplied in the BR Blue Activity Pack.

Is this another nail in the MSTS coffin?  Or is there a solution?

If you are running Windows 8.1 with an NVIDIA graphics card and are getting decent frame rates with MSTS, would you please post as much detail as you can.

Cheers,
Ged

EDIT : The above has also been posted on UKTS under Special Interests Forums - Technical Discussions in order to, hopefully, get a wider selection of answers!

slipperman12 wrote:
Is this another nail in the MSTS coffin?  Or is there a solution?

Well there's a less than romantic thought for Valentine's Day! Let's hope it doesn't represent a massacre!

It would appear that if one wants to continue with an old programme - as I do with MSTS - then one needs to have an old OS! From an MSTS point of view the chances of a new intake of interested simmers will be severely curtailed by the continuing advance(!?) in technology. Well so be it as I can live with that. I can already hear the comments with respect to Open Rails being the new MSTS and so it will be, but for the foreseeable future MSTS and I will continue to ride on the train into the sunset!

Hi all,

Although I believe that Open Rails is the future for our train simulator hobby, as long as I can still use MSTS I will continue to use it and create activities for it. This assumes that people still want my efforts - I do have a request sitting in the wings waiting for my completion of the Dusk and Night versions of Kenji Kimura's cabviews. I know that there is a reducing number of us using MSTS and that this will continue to fall as newer and better (????) operating systems etc. are produced, but, like Alec, lets ride the old girl into as long a sunset as possible.

At the moment I'm using W7 and an AMD graphics card and the way things are looking I will try to keep this as long as possible or until a better OS is produced.

Regards,

Stephen

PS. I hope my comments aren't too far of the subject of this topic.

Would MSTS run under Linux or other similar alternative operating systems? if so, installing one of these could be a way round the compatibility problems encountered in later versions of Windows, especially with AMD graphics cards.

Hi Mark,
I remember looking at Linux a very long time ago!!

Do you know if there are any Windows emulators for it?

Cheers,
Ged

Didn't understand a word of what I wrote,but thought it might be of help.

Er . . . it's a bit too early for April Fools! Read through the whole post!

This was the answer I found to the question of running windows software on linux (this answer is 4 years old though so things may be different now),

Please keep in mind that windows and Linux based systems are entirely different, build on different code bases and security structures.

You can run certain windows based software on Linux based systems by using a windows emulator software which created a basic fake windows structure to allow compatibility, some of these products are free and others must be purchased.

Emulators
Wine - Wine is a free windows emulator with good support, you can check if your chosen software is supported at http://appdb.winehq.org/

Crossover Office and Crossover games (http://www.codeweavers.com/) - The crossover products are paid but they offer better compatibility than wine with most software. If you are looking to run Office based software checkout Crossover Office, if you are looking to run games then Crossover Games will offer a better solution.

Cedega - Cedega is another paid windows emulator which is made for games. You can check their application database to see if your chosen game is supported at http://www.cedega.com/gamesdb/

Potential Issues
You must keep in mind that these products are only emulators, certain windows based functionality such as windows based encryption cannot be supported because they require the windows proprietary API and libraries which cannot be legally reproduced or copied. With that being the case many general applications will work, but some specialized applications cannot be run outside of windows, but it never hurts to check the application databases to be sure. - See more at: http://www.linux.com/learn/answers/view/519-can-i-run-my-windows-software-in-linux#sthash.8WC8WPCS.dpuf

Hi Chaps (and Ladies, if there are any!),
A member of the trainsim.com Forum has stated that he is successfully running MSTS under Windows 8.1 with an AMD/ATI graphics card. I was able to get some more information from him, which might be useful, or not, if others refute his findings!

He is running an AMD FX-8320 8 Core CPU on an ASUS M5A97 motherboard; the graphics card he's using is an AMD HD 7850, which is one of my test cards. For information, my AMD Win 8 PC uses an AMD Phenom II x2 550BE cpu on an ASUS M4A79XTD EVO m/b. This would seem to point to the chipset and/or the CPU as the cause of the problem which most AMD graphics card users have. Your views are welcome, especially if you're running one of the newer AMD CPUs.

Cheers,
Ged

Off Piste I know,but does anyone as yet have the answer as to whether or not it will run on Win 10.......Having been disappointed with how it runs on Win 7  (or not C2D) I must admit to a certain amount of trepidation about upgrading as soon as possible ?

Hi Roger,
Sorry, under Win 10, use of an AMD/ATI graphics card for MSTS is still a no-no!!  (Unless, maybe, you've got the right combination of CPU and Chipset )
It still works with an NVIDIA graphics card and, of course, Open Rails works OK, although I've not carried out any detailed tests.

Cheers,
Ged

Hi All,
Well, it had to happen eventually!!
I'm pleased to say that MSTS will now run under Windows 8.1 with an AMD graphics card
See here : http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread ... rd-in-MSTS
I've only done a couple of rudimentary tests - Open MSTS and start a default route, partially run an activity in MEP and started the Activity Editor - but all run as they do in Win 7.

The instructions contained with the Fix aren't very intuitive, so please ask if you require clarification.
Basically, one of the AMD dll files is copied into the MSTS root folder and then the Fix applied to it - only 1 byte seems to have been changed, although the fix reports it's written 3 bytes - and that's it!

I haven't tested it yet with Windows 10, but will wait until it's officially released and then post my findings.

The above checks were carried out under a fully updated Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit using AMDdrivers 15.200.1046.0 dated 22/06/2015.

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged

Very good to hear about running MSTS under Windows.8.1 with AMD graphics.
But, unfortunately, the link that you have provided takes right to the Error 404 page provided from Windows Explorer. D'oh!

Cheers
Alistair Cowell

Hi Alistair,
Apologies for that
Here's the full link (I hope!) :  
http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?322502-Will-Windows-10-support-AMD-graphic-card-in-MSTS

Don't worry about the reference to Win 10 in the title!

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged,

A question if I may? Will this fix work for a laptop running an Intel HD4000 Graphics?

Cheers

Andy

Hi Ged,

Forget my last post as I don't have the atiumdag.dll file as it's an Intel Driver!!

Do you know of a fix for this please?

Cheers

Andy

Hi Andy,
Sorry, mate, this mod is for AMD cards only!

I haven't seen a fix for the Intel 4xxx problem, but if I do, I'll post details here!!

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged,

I think I have found a fix, albeit by back-dating my drivers! For any machine running Windows 8.1 and using the Intel HD4000 Graphics Card I have downloaded this driver; https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/24971/Intel-HD-Graphics-Driver-for-Windows-7-8-64-bit

And surprise, surprise; MSTS graphics are no longer scrambled!!! Even after a reboot!

Of course I still need to update MSTS and New Roads and Xtracks etc..... But so far so good!

Cheers

Andy

Hi Andy,
That's good news!
Sorry I can't help as none of my PCs use the Intel 4000 graphics.

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged,

Feel free to share the news and see if anyone else has a fully working Non-Scrambled MSTS screen!?? Would certainly be glad of any feedback!?

Cheers

Andy

Hi all,

Further to my last post, I have taken the plunge after spending about 2 hours downloading and Installing Windows 10 on my HP Laptop with the Intel HD4000 card built in using the last link to the driver for it and it still works without any scrambled text!! Great news! Next question is do I do the same with my other Laptop with the HD3000 card currently running Windows 7 Pro?

One of the downsides I found after Installing Windows 10 is seeing that it wasn't activated and nor would it! To get around this you have to try this anywhere between 40/50 times;

1) Open a command Prompt as Administrator
2) Type in the following; slmgr.vbs /ato  
3) Hit enter

Apparently, this is because it the MS Servers are busy and are unable to Handshake!!

Cheers

Andy

Hi Andy,
Earlier this evening, I switched to my Win 8.1 partition and waited for Win 10 to start downloading. I didn't get any screen prompts, but the data light on my router was flashing away. I left it about 30 - 40 minutes, but still didn't get any prompts and the light was still flashing! I turned it off and will try again tomorrow, probably on my Win 8/10 testing PC.

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged,

Have you checked Windows Update to see if it failed? It failed a few times for me..... Then you have to go through C:\Windows\SoftwareDistribution\Download folder and remove everything. I had to do this a few times....

Give that a go!

Cheers

Andy

Alright I'm thick,but do you mean I go to C then open,Windows/ open "Software Distribution" open the "Download Folder" within and just get rid of everything in the "Download Folder",or the download folder itself.Sorry to be a pain.....

neanderthal wrote:Alright I'm thick,but do you mean I go to C then open,Windows/ open "Software Distribution" open the "Download Folder" within and just get rid of everything in the "Download Folder",or the download folder itself.Sorry to be a pain.....

Yes you go to your C Drive and then double click on the windows folder and then go to Softwaredistribution folder and double click on that folder and then locate the Download folder and double click on that and once you are in then do a Ctrl + A to select everything and then just hit delete to remove everything in that folder. Hope this helps?

Thanks for that Andy,better safe than sorry.

Hi All,
My first tests with Window 10 Pro, using an NVIDIA graphics card, indicate that the MSTS Sim and Editors run successfully.

I've also checked Train Store, Route Riter and Shape File Manager. I picked the last one because it requires Internet Explorer to be installed to run. I believe Win 10 has IE and The Edge browsers. For Route Riter, it was necessary to install Java 32-bit - I used v8u51.

The only problem I had was with NVIDIA Control Panel - it just wouldn't work! The remedy was to uninstall the card (via Device Manager) then get Windows to check for new hardware; after it had allocated the default PnP drivers, I downloaded and installed NVIDIA v353.30 drivers. It all now works successfully.

Cheers,
Ged

That seems like good news and I shall continue to monitor the situation before seriously looking at W10.

One interesting fact is that if you are using Windows 10 Home then you cannot opt out of receiving and installing updates, as the update process is entirely automatic and updates are installed as soon as they become available whether you like it or not. I believe the Microsoft description is mandatory! Apparently Windows 10 Pro allows you to manage your Windows updates.

I was under the impression that the Edge browser replaces the Internet Explorer browser and that the latter was no longer supported?

I also believe that MS is only supporting the W10 OS for 10 years, comprising 5 years mainstream and 5 years extended - whether any small print will change that is anyone's guess! The 10 years started on 29 July 2015. If you do choose to upgrade it is possible to then downgrade back to W7 or W8, but that must be done within 30 days of the original upgrade.

Those of us who love the standard games such as Solitaire, Minesweeper and Hearts, etc. will be disappointed as they don't come with W10, although you may be able to download some of them from an app store.

Oh my aching head!

Aha,Alec,I for one didn't realise about the Automatic upload function for "Windows 10 Home Edition" which is what I have..

And I certainly cannot afford to buy a new PC, so it would appear to me that, for me at least "Win 10" is not really a viable option as it would really mean handing control of my PC over to MicroSoft to do with as they will.
So really even if I had MSTS up and running (have to buy a new and expensive) Graphics Card they could really stop it from working at any time they wished by use of an update.

I think I will instead stick with WIN 7 and get my PC "Dual Booted" (I think that's the right word) and get half the Disc turned over to "XP",the only other alternative being to give up on MSTS altogether as I do not get on with OR.
Win 10 is already on my PC but not installed,so I'm glad you posted this Today,
My UKTS Premium Membership is up this Month anyway so probably won't be renewed now ,and as my Son is coming over today or Tomorrow I'll ask him to get rid of the Win 10.

Thankfully, I have two computers, this one (HP Pavillion g6 Laptop with AMD graphics)  which I just use for general use and several other games,  running on Windows 8.1 and my much older Sony VA10 desktop, running on Windows XP, solely for running MSTS.
I can't get MSTS to run on this laptop, because of the graphics card,  but it will run other games like Silent Hunter, 3, 4 & 5. Roller Coaster Tycoon 3 and Rfactor3 car racing game, which I have already installed.

I just use my old Sony VA10 computer, purely for running MSTS. Not being technically minded, I am am bit reluctant when it comes to downloading anything to do with upgrades and the workings of a computer, so I am leaving this laptop as it is, because it does what I want it to do, run all the games mentioned above, with no problems or glitches. So as far as upgrading to Windows 10, I am declining, as it might cause problems with some of the games that I frequently play.
I look at it this way, if things are running as I want them to, then leave well alone from any upgrades.

I just bit the bullet and updated my back-up machine to W10. It has an AMD HD6870 graphics card so I was keen to see if the fix works for me. Unfortunately it didn't. When I try to run MSTS I get a black screen with "Train Simulator" in the top left corner for a second or so and then MSTS disappears back to the desktop.

Bob.

Progress!!!

I tried installing DirectX 9c, just in case, and ran MProfile but no luck. It was strange in that the tools would run okay but not the main program.

I think what finally did it was to make sure MSTS was running as administrator and in XP (SP3) compatibility mode.

Bob.