I've noticed ?

While waiting for the "Right Away" at Bala I've noticed that the reading for the Brakes are
EQ 90psi BC-17psi BP6.2 Bar BP 64.  when released  the BC doesn't alter and you cannot reasonably get up to Arenig (2% gradient in places).


But if as you're leaving (and it's hard to get moving) you press Alt and A (Auto Pilot) for a few seconds and then straight back off again the reading alters from BC-17 psi to BC30 psi..

The difference is dramatic (to say the least). With the first setting you can get up the grade (just) by leaving two Coaches behind, , in the second setting you can keep to TT with the full Rake (Just).

Please Note.....its only the BC-17 psi that changes,the BP raises to 6.2 and 90 as normal..

I hope I have made clear what I am trying to say (I'm called Neanderthal for a reason LOL)

Can you tell us which locomotive you are using and possibly post the eng file, then we can have a look at the brakes section.

Unfortunately very many MSTS locos have poorly written brakes sections - this causes problems for OpenRails. One solution is to use simple controls. Another may be to "initialize the brakes".

For best performance in Open Rails I would recommend that you replace the MSTS eng files with updated OR eng files wherever possible.

D7575, sorry but I dont know how to put an engine file on here,
unless this is what you mean.

BrakeEquipmentType ( "Triple_valve, Auxilary_reservoir, Emergency_brake_reservoir" )

BrakeSystemType ( "Air_single_pipe" )
MaxBrakeForce ( 200kN )

EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure( 110 )
TripleValveRatio( 2.5 )
MaxReleaseRate( 30 )
MaxApplicationRate( 25 )
MaxAuxilaryChargingRate( 20 )
EmergencyResCapacity( 10 )
EmergencyResChargingRate( 25 )
BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce( 70 )

I should point out that I have found this fault on quite a few Engines, and doubt very much that I would be competent in altering files.
Thank you for your interest though Roger.

I can give you some things to copy and paste into your eng (and wag files).

There is not very much wrong with that top part for D7575, though I would want to replace

BrakeEquipmentType ( "Triple_valve, Auxilary_reservoir, Emergency_brake_reservoir" )
BrakeSystemType ( "Air_single_pipe" )

with

BrakeEquipmentType ( "Triple_valve, Auxilary_reservoir" )
BrakeSystemType ( "Air_twin_pipe" )

This is because UK air brake systems do not include emergency reservoirs and the systems on modern diesel and electric trains are twin pipe systems.

You can do that in all your eng and wag files if you want.


There are two more brake sections in an eng file, the next one is lower down in the Engine section and looks like this:

AirBrakesAirCompressorPowerRating( 1.2 )
AirBrakesMainMinResAirPressure( 0 )
AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure( 90 )
AirBrakesMainResVolume( 8 )
AirBrakesAirCompressorWattage( 19000 )
AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure( 87 )
AirBrakesAirUsedPerPoundsOfBrakePipePressure( 0.22 )
AirBrakesIsCompressorElectricOrMechanical( 1 )

EngineBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 6 )
TrainBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 6 )
EngineBrakesControllerHasProportionalBrake( 1 )
EngineBrakesProportionalBrakeLag( 0.9 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 20 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 20 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 15 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 4 )
EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 50 )
TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 50 )
EngineBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
TrainBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 90 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 90 )
EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyBrakeTimePenalty( 60 )
TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyBrakeTimePenalty( 60 )
EngineBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 26 )
TrainBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 26 )


DynamicBrakesMinUsableSpeed( 5 )
DynamicBrakesMaximumEffectiveSpeed( 25 )
DynamicBrakesMaximumForce( 20000 )
DynamicBrakesResistorCurrentLimit ( 5000 )
DynamicBrakesCutInSpeed( 8 )
DynamicBrakesMaxAirBrakePressure ( 15 )
DynamicBrakesFadingSpeed( 25 )
DynamicBrakesDelayTimeBeforeEngaging ( 10 )
DynamicBrakesMaximumSpeedForFadeOut ( 65 )
DynamicBrakesEffectAtMaximumFadeOut( 0 )
DynamicBrakesHigherSpeedCurveExponent( 1 )
DynamicBrakesLowerSpeedCurveExponent( 1 )
DynamicBrakesNumberOfControllerNotches( 10 )


BrakesEngineBrakeType ( "Air_single_pipe"  )
BrakesTrainBrakeType ( "Air_single_pipe" )
       BrakesEngineControllers( "Independent, Train, Dynamic" )
       
       EngineBrakesControllerDirectControlExponent( 1 )


That is the part of the file where all the errors are.  Replace that entire section with this one:


BrakesEngineBrakeType( "Air_twin_pipe"  )
BrakesTrainBrakeType( "Air_twin_pipe" )

AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure( 140psi )
AirBrakeMaxMainResPipePressure ( 110psi )
AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure( 118psi )
ORTSBrakePipeChargingRate ( 60psi/s )
AirBrakesMainResVolume( 35ft^3 )
ORTSMainResChargingRate ( 0.575 )

TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 70psi )
ORTSTrainBrakesControllerMaxOverchargePressure ( 76psi )
ORTSTrainBrakesControllerOverchargeEliminationRate ( 0.0016bar/s )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxQuickReleaseRate( 46psi/s )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 6psi/s )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 4.2psi/s )
TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 60psi/s )
TrainBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 24psi )
TrainBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 6psi )

DoesBrakeCutPower ( 1 )
ORTSBrakeCutsPowerAtBrakePipePressure ( 46psi )
ORTSBrakeRestoresPowerAtBrakePipePressure ( 60psi )

EngineBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 70psi )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 10psi/s )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 10psi/s )
EngineBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 24psi )
EngineBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 6psi )


That should solve your problems. Again you can copy and paste the above as a replacement into any diesel or electric loco with air brakes.

The final bit of the engine file to do with brakes is the drivers' controls. You don't need to replace this, but you will get a better driving experience if you do. This is what the driver's brake controls look like for D7575:

           Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.0125 0
               NumNotches ( 1
                   Notch( 0  1 Dummy )
               )
           )
           Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.0125 0.75
               NumNotches ( 5
                   Notch( 0    0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
                   Notch( 0.3  1 TrainBrakesControllerGraduatedSelfLapLimitedHoldingStart )
                   Notch( 0.85 0 TrainBrakesControllerSuppressionStart )
                   Notch( 0.9  0 TrainBrakesControllerContinuousServiceStart )
                   Notch( 0.95 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart )
               )
           )
           Brake_Dynamic ( 0 1 0.11 0
               NumNotches ( 10
                Notch ( 0       0 Dummy )
                    Notch ( 0.11    0 Dummy )
                  Notch ( 0.22    0 Dummy )
                   Notch ( 0.33    0 Dummy )
                   Notch ( 0.44    0 Dummy )
                   Notch ( 0.55    0 Dummy )
                   Notch ( 0.66    0 Dummy )
                   Notch ( 0.77    0 Dummy )
                   Notch ( 0.88    0 Dummy )
                   Notch ( 1       0 Dummy )
               )
           )

This is what you could replace them with:

Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.1 0.2
NumNotches ( 4
 Notch ( 0.0  0 TrainBrakesControllerOverchargeStart )
 Notch ( 0.1  0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
 Notch ( 0.2  1 TrainBrakesControllerGraduatedSelfLapLimitedStart  )
 Notch ( 1.0  0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart )))

Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.1 0.0
NumNotches( 1
Notch( 0 1 EngineBrakesControllerContinuousServiceStart ) ) )


Why not have a try with D7575? Make a backup copy of the eng file first and put it on your desk top or in a safe place whilst you try. The open the D7575.eng file in the Trainset folder, copy and paste the three parts above in place of the three old sections identified. Save. Try the loco to see if it still works! If you are happy then you can do this for other locos (and rolling stock). If it all goes wrong then replace the one in the trainset folder with the backup copy.

Thank you,I'll have a bash

Hi Darwin

I was interested in your reply to Roger with regard to the braking issues he was having with loco D7575.

You state that in modern diesel and electric locos, brakes are twin pipe systems. Can I ask you if that includes all BR diesel locos from the early sixties, say class 24, onwards. If that is the case then most of the MSTS air brake stock would need to have their .eng and .wag files amended from air single pipe to air twin pipe to reflect accuracy.

I wonder if you are able to confirm this .

Cheers For now

Terry W.

Roger Have you given it a bash yet.............and was it a success???

Tary the answers in order is  1) Yes.  2) No..

But I'm sure that is my fault, it's what usually happens when I try to alter thing..

Hi Terry,

Disappointing that Roger could not get this to work.

The answer to your question is that all UK dual braked and air braked locos from 1960s onwards would be Air_Twin_Pipe.

(The class 24s remained vacuum braked until the end.)

Passenger carriages and some fast goods wagons should also be twin pipe. Most air braked goods wagons are Air_Single_Pipe, although for modern British wagons you should still replace "triple_valve" with "distributor".

Hope this helps.

Darwin

Hi Darwin

Thanks for confirming the information regarding twin and single pipe air brakes.

It seems that this may be yet another 'parting of the ways' between OR and MSTS. From my experimenting over the last couple of days it seems as though OR can cope with SP and TP air brakes in the same consist and function OK. I have not had the same success with MSTS and as yet not been able to find a way of applying the brake throughout a consist that has mixed ( SP and TP ) air brakes. I think therefor for the moment I will be leaving the MSTS .eng and .wag files set as air SP, whilst changing to TP, where necessary my OR stock. These files are located in an "include" folder within the MSTS stock folder and so of course can contain suitable changes to the original MSTS file.

I think I have read in a post that you, like others, have stopped using MSTS. For myself I am still using the sim and will try to keep it on my systems for as long as it will run OK. I cannot give a logical reason why though!!!!

Anyway thanks again for your input and BTW thanks for the numerous .eng and .wag files that you have created and uploaded. Although I do not use them as posted the data contained within has been worth it's weight in gold for me.

Cheers for now

Terry

Roger

I have sent you a PM

TW

Hi Terry

You are correct, in OR, as in real life, any locomotive with either EP brakes, twin pipe or single pipe can operate the brakes on any of these three kinds of rolling stock.

Here are some different brake controllers you might like to try with air brakes:

For class 03, 08 and 09:

Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.1 0.4
NumNotches ( 4
Notch ( 0.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerOverchargeStart ) Comment ( RELEASE )
Notch ( 0.2 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart ) Comment ( RUNNING )
Notch ( 0.4 1 TrainBrakesControllerGraduatedSelfLapLimitedStart ) Comment ( 1st SERVICE >>> FULL SERVICE )
Notch ( 1.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ) Comment ( EMERGENCY ) ) )

Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.3 0
NumNotches ( 3
Notch ( 0.0 0 EngineBrakesControllerReleaseStart ) Comment ( RELEASE )
Notch ( 0.3 0 EngineBrakesControllerFullServiceStart ) Comment ( FULL SERVICE )
Notch ( 1.0 0 EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ) Comment ( EMERGENCY ) ) )

Brake_Brakeman ( 0 1 0.1 0.0
NumNotches ( 1
Notch( 0 1 BrakemanBrakesControllerManualBrakingStart ) ) )

EmergencyStopToggle( 0 1 0 )

For classes 25, 26, 27, 31, 37, 40, 45, 46, 47, 50, 55, 71, 76 and 81 to 87:

Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.1 0.2
NumNotches ( 4
Notch ( 0.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerOverchargeStart ) Comment ( RELEASE - sprung position )
Notch ( 0.1 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart ) Comment ( RUNNING )
Notch ( 0.2 1 TrainBrakesControllerGraduatedSelfLapLimitedStart )
Notch ( 1.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ) ) )

Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.1 0.0
NumNotches( 1
Notch( 0 1 EngineBrakesControllerContinuousServiceStart ) ) )

For classes 71, 73 and 74:

Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.1 0.5
NumNotches ( 4
Notch( 0.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart ) Comment ( RUNNING and RELEASE )
Notch( 0.4 1 TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ) Comment ( INITIAL >>> FULL SERVICE )
Notch( 0.9 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ) Comment ( EMERGENCY )
Notch( 1.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerNeutralHandleOffStart) Comment ( NEUTRAL ) ) )

Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.1 0.0
NumNotches( 1
Notch( 0 1 EngineBrakesControllerContinuousServiceStart ) ) )

For classes 56, 90, 91, Mk3 DVT and Mk4 DVT:

Brake_Train ( 0 1.0 0.01 0.2
NumNotches ( 9
Notch ( 0 0 TrainBrakesControllerOverchargeStart ) Coment ( RELS )
Notch ( 0.01 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart ) Comment ( RUN )
Notch ( 0.02 0 TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ) Comment ( 1 INI )
Notch ( 0.16 0 TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ) Comment ( 2 )
Notch ( 0.40 0 TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ) Comment ( 3 )
Notch ( 0.65 0 TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ) Comment ( 4 )
Notch ( 0.80 0 TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ) Comment ( 5 )
Notch ( 0.99 0 TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ) Comment ( 6 FULL SERV )
Notch ( 1.00 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ) ) ) Comment ( EMGY )

Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.3 0
NumNotches ( 3
Notch ( 0 0 EngineBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch ( 0.3 0 EngineBrakesControllerHoldStart )
Notch ( 0.6 0 EngineBrakesControllerFullServiceStart ) ) )

EmergencyStopToggle ( 0 1 0 )

For HST:

Brake_Train ( 0 1.0 0.01 0.2
NumNotches ( 8
Notch ( 0.00 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart ) Comment ( RUN )
Notch ( 0.02 0 TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ) Comment ( 1 INI )
Notch ( 0.16 0 TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ) Comment ( 2 )
Notch ( 0.40 0 TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ) Comment ( 3 )
Notch ( 0.65 0 TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ) Comment ( 4 )
Notch ( 0.80 0 TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ) Comment ( 5 )
Notch ( 0.99 0 TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ) Comment ( 6 FULL SERV )
Notch ( 1.00 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ) ) ) Comment ( EMGY )

EmergencyStopToggle ( 0 1 0 )

For class 58 and subsequent locomotive designs:

Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.5 0
NumNotches ( 3
Notch ( 0.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart ) Comment ( RELEASE - sprung )
Notch ( 0.5 0 EngineBrakesControllerSelfLapStart ) Comment ( LAP )
Notch ( 1.0 0 EngineBrakesControllerFullServiceStart ) Comment ( APPLY - sprung ) ) )

EmergencyStopToggle ( 0 1 0 )

Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.5 0
NumNotches ( 3
Notch ( 0.0 0 EngineBrakesControllerReleaseStart ) Comment ( RELEASE – sprung )
Notch ( 0.5 0 EngineBrakesControllerHoldLappedStart ) Comment ( LAP )
Notch ( 1.0 0 EngineBrakesControllerFullServiceStart ) Comment ( APPLY - sprung ) ) )

Hi Darwin,

I have tried these settings

Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.1 0.2
NumNotches ( 4
Notch ( 0.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerOverchargeStart ) Comment ( RELEASE - sprung position )
Notch ( 0.1 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart ) Comment ( RUNNING )
Notch ( 0.2 1 TrainBrakesControllerGraduatedSelfLapLimitedStart )
Notch ( 1.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ) ) )

on a Class 47 with very good results.

Thank you for all your hard work in producing settings for both engines and wagons suitable for use with Open Rails. It certainly makes for a much better driving experience.

I have created folders containing your settings ready for easy access as I steadily convert all my rolling stock from MSTS to Open Rails.

Regards,

Stephen

Hi Again Darwin,

Thank you so much again for the posted controllers data. The various controllers for different classes of loco will give me an opportunity to experiment with stock over the next few weeks.
For the record I have just plucked this data from out of my default class 50 engine file.

BrakeEquipmentType ( "Distributor, Auxilary_reservoir, Handbrake" )
BrakeSystemType ( "Air_twin_pipe" )
MaxBrakeForce ( 289kN )
MaxHandBrakeForce ( 115kN )
EmergencyResVolumeMultiplier ( 1.0 )
Comment (TripleValveRatio ( 2.5 ) )
MaxReleaseRate ( 50.0 )
MaxApplicationRate ( 50.0 )
MaxAuxilaryChargingRate ( 20.0 )
EmergencyResChargingRate ( 20.0 )
BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce ( 70.0 )
EmergencyResCapacity ( 2.064ft^3 )
BrakePipeVolume ( 0.83ft^3 )
ORTSBrakeShoeFriction ( 0.0 0.49 8.0 0.436 16.1 0.4 24.1 0.371 32.2 0.35 40.2 0.336 48.3 0.325 56.3 0.318 64.4 0.309 72.2 0.304 80.5 0.298 88.5 0.295 96.6 0.289 104.6 0.288) Comment ( == COBRA Brakeshoes == )



Comment ( *** Braking system *** )

Comment ( == Compressor, Reservoir and General == )
AirBrakeMaxMainResPipePressure ( 110.0 )
AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure( 110.0 )
AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure( 90.0 )
ORTSBrakePipeChargingRate ( 120.0 )
AirBrakesMainResVolume ( "40.0*(ft^3)" ) Comment ( 20.490ft^3 typical value in CtoN physics document )
ORTSMainResChargingRate ( 1.0 ) Comment (Higher number faster charge)
TrainPipeLeakRate ( 0.0833 )

Comment ( == Brake valve - Train == )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 70 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 1.0 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxQuickReleaseRate( 20.0 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 1.0 )
TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 30.0 )
TrainBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 25.0 )
TrainBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 3.0 )

Comment ( == Independent Brake valve - Engine == )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 70 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 1.0 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxQuickReleaseRate( 20.0 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 1.0 )
EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 30.0 )
EngineBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 25.0 )
EngineBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 3.0 )

BrakesEngineBrakeType( "Air_twin_pipe" )
BrakesTrainBrakeType( "Air_twin_pipe" )
BrakesEngineControllers( "Independent, Train" )
EngineBrakesControllerDirectControlExponent( 1 )

Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.010 0
NumNotches ( 1
Notch( 0 1 Dummy )
)
)
Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.05 0
NumNotches ( 5
Notch( 0.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch( 0.15 0 TrainBrakesControllerRunningStart )
Notch( 0.30 0 TrainBrakesControllerHoldLappedStart )
Notch( 0.50 0 TrainBrakesControllerFullServiceStart )
Notch( 0.85 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart )
)
)

I have no idea how prototypical these settings are, however they do seem to give me an element of fine control over the braking system.

once again.............BIG THANKS!!


Terry


PS and thanks to Stephen for posting details of his class 47 controller.

Hi Terry

They are mostly pretty good for a class 50, except the controller would be the same as for the class 47:

Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.1 0.2
NumNotches ( 4
Notch ( 0.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerOverchargeStart ) Comment ( RELEASE - sprung position )
Notch ( 0.1 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart ) Comment ( RUNNING )
Notch ( 0.2 1 TrainBrakesControllerGraduatedSelfLapLimitedStart )
Notch ( 1.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ) ) )

Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.1 0.0
NumNotches( 1
Notch( 0 1 EngineBrakesControllerContinuousServiceStart ) ) )

In early days, when working on the LMR the class 50 also used dynamic braking. I am not too sure how to add this simply to a basic Open Rails file, but in an advanced format it might look something like this:

ORTSDynamicBrakeForceCurves(
0.0 (
0 0
7 0
10 0
13 0
17 0
22 0
29 0
31 0
36 0
37 0
39 0
44 0
49 0
54 0
)

1.0 (
0 0
7 0
10 15505
13 124037
17 124037
22 98723
29 75585
31 69106
36 60468
37 58993
39 54971
44 49362
49 44380
54 8340
)
)

BrakesEngineControllers( "Independent, Train, Blended" )

DynamicBrakesMaximumForce( 125kN )
DynamicBrakesCutInSpeed( 10 )
DynamicBrakesMaxAirBrakePressure ( 72.5 )
DynamicBrakesDelayTimeBeforeEngaging ( 1 )
DynamicBrakesNumberOfControllerNotches( 0 )
DynamicBrakeHasAutoBailOff( 1 )
ORTSDynamicBrakeBlendingForceMatch ( 1 )

The dynamic braking was later disabled when working on the WR and SR.

Regards

Darwin

Hi Darwin

Nearly used up my daily allocation of thank you's for today.......but just found this one at the bottom of the box!!

Thanks again

TW

When I was working freight trains,they were all air brake,single pipe and the odd ecs were twin pipe.The latter  gives a faster release because the train pipe recharges the air reservoirs on the vehicles,not the brake pipe.In MSTS,Rudolf Richter states the only satisfactory system for air brakes is single pipe.I still think OR is making things too complicated !

Well I certainly appear to have started something with this Post