Decline of MSTS and UKTS?

Recently, UKTrainSim website has seen the "THIS PAGE IS SUSPECT" warning. Plus, new file upload approvals are not frequent, maybe just once a week.

Also, there has been MSTS content which has been drowned by Dovetail Games Train Simulator content then a waiting game for a while.

Whilst this is going on, there has been very few members who are dealing with MSTS content.

Perhaps this might be the fact is that UKTrainSim is having a bit of a struggle at the moment, yet new members are coming through.
In addition to the above problems, there has been a number of outages in the past month or so, so the website is certainly showing its age.

Microsoft Train Simulator is now 14 years old and had ceased production in 2009, yet we had kept the old dog going for a further few years (6 years in fact!)

With everything I mentioned above, plus MSTS not working on some Windows 8 and 10 machines, I don't think MSTS will be in fashion for any much longer, and nobody knows how long UKTrainSim will last.

Alistair Cowell

Alistair, what do you see the alternative as being?

In this country MSTS is definitely becoming a minority interest, supported by mainly older simmers, we no longer have any new commercial releases here, MSTS still has more support in places like Germany and the US, with companies like Pro-Train producing European content and in the US content from the likes of MLT and several other producers are still actively producing content, so that may be where any future of MSTS lies.

Hello all, I think Alistair is really stating what we have all feared for quite a while now.I have already given up on expecting anything more from UKTS,and being a premium member that says it all really.If there are any Routes in the pipeline,as we are kept being told there are what has happened to them.Just grew old I suppose.....Surely we,even here on Safe house have noticed the swap to OR of what I would call the "Big Names".

That's not for me,so I suppose the day of putting Win 10 on my PC may be closer than I had thought........Roger

OR is now becoming a more viable alternative to MSTS, as they push on with the development of OR it will become even more so, especially when they develop their own tools and editors which will make it more independent from MSTS and more of a standalone sim,  at least we can keep the vast amount of MSTS content alive and well in OR, even if MSTS bites the dust.

It is a sad fact that MSTS is an old defunct program and is very unlikely to appeal to younger simmers, but a fully functioning OR that can be run and edit content will appeal to younger simmers as it will run on their newer machines without all the kerfuffle of getting a MSTS set-up up to date and running.

Those of us who do still have MSTS can enjoy our favourite content in both sims.

Once OR is a fully functioning standalone sim, UKTS may take a little more interest again.

Mark, I also saw OR as a viable alternative to MSTS but am recently modifying that opinion.

As I see it, OR is concentrating on increasing the additional features it can provide (don't get me wrong, I see the creation of these as a very good thing). Currently OR is not compatible with the way we UK users use MSTS. This is with no water troughs, the ability to take on water anywhere, no activity evaluation, no mileposts, a totally different treatment of SPADs, some steam loco physics not being supported (and probably others) and I see no urgency in having these matters resolved. I believe this supports this opinion.

Please tell me I am wrong!

Maybe we need some more UK programmers joining the OR team to get these issues fixed.

Oh dear what a depressing thread, although this is not the first time this subject has been raised nor the first time that Alistair has addressed this.

It's undeniable that MSTS is on the decline and probably now rates as a “retro” programme. It's also undeniable that new content for upload is more sparse. There are routes that could be uploaded direct, as was done for North West England v3, such as Dorset Coast v6 and South East Steam although Danny would prefer the DVD approach. Perhaps once again there are those amongst us who would be prepared to offer help to UKTS in checking these routes and their associated content? It's certainly not for us here on TSSH to comment on the way UKTS conducts itself, and we can only hope that the outstanding routes will eventually come to upload and/or DVD fruition.

As I have said on more occasions than I care to remember I will soldier on with MSTS. Yes it can be a pain and in the long term I'm liable to be forced to abandon it as much due to hardware failure and/or continuing OS development that won't recognise or deal with MSTS. I very much hope that this won't happen until I depart this mortal coil or I get too friendly with Mr Alzheimer!

At the moment I am addressing the dearth of new stuff by creating my own and if it's of interest to others then that's fine. I'm not sure that we should bemoan the fact that OR doesn't address features that are of interest to UK simmers, unless we are prepared to offer help that would allow these features to be included – don't forget that OR is an Open Source project!

I also believe that we should accept the current status and work within it's limitations, or perhaps do as Ged is doing and look at routines that might help MSTS to be that little more efficient.

Having broken off from my TSM efforts to offer my own personal thoughts, I shall once again get hammer and nails out and continue building an LYR Covered Wagon for use in MSTS!

Hi Folks

Sorry if I did repeat what I've said before. Yes, sadly, MSTS is a now-defunct program, as Mark had said.
Perhaps everyone's just waiting for a full version of Open Rails to arrive before we enjoy former MSTS to the full, but won't be for some time to come.

For UKTS at the moment, this might just be the off-peak period (e.g. few members online, file upload approvals only done one or two times a week,
even absent admin, etc.). This has happened before and no doubt will happen again.

Cheers  
Alistair Cowell

Hi Alistair,
May I point out that MSTS does run without problems under Windows 8.1 and 10 with an NVIDIA graphics card.
There is also a fix for PCs using an AMD/ATI graphics card under those Operating Systems : http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?322502-Will-Windows-10-support-AMD-graphic-card-in-MSTS/page2 See post #19.

I agree with David that Open Rails is still quite a long way from being able to run how we like! Then there are the Activity and Route Editors which, as far as I can tell, are a very long way in the future. Don't worry, MSTS will be with us for a long time yet, OS and graphics card drivers permitting!!

Cheers,
Ged

Hi All,

As I have stated in an earlier post somewhere my personal feeling is that MSTS is slowly dying and that its place (?) will be taken by OR. Some of you will know that I have experimented in creating an activity which uses OR specific functions which although worked fine on my computer didn't on some other peoples - my suggested reason was possibly a slight variation in the track data base between the DVD and download versions. Just looking at all the activities I have produced there are a lot which will only run using MSTS because of the way the eng files have been written. This doesn't take into account the way that OR treats signals and priorities etc. So for me, yes, I will continue to use MSTS for these activities - this also includes the many others produced by other people. However, when I try a new activity my first attempt is always in OR - if it works, fine, if it doesn't, then no complaints, I just restart it in MSTS. Even with my relatively low powered computer the difference in the graphics is very, very, noticeable in OR and train performances are much more realistic which are just two of the reasons why I prefer OR. There are various OR functions currently available that offer exciting possibilities within activities. At the moment a lot of improvements to our train simming experience can only be made by tweaks to MSTS first - another reason why we still need MSTS.

All future activities I upload will be aimed more at OR but will either also work with MSTS or be OR specific such as the one currently under construction.

Regards,

Stephen

One of the difficulties with MSTS is that as it comes out of the box it is pretty hopeless. After some very clever people have worked on it and shewn what can be done, it is extremely good and great fun to work with. It is far from dead. If someone could make an attractive initial package for beginners and improve the graphics engine it would be even better. Roderic Findlay

I have this evening sent a PM to UKTS asking whether the MSTS community as a whole could offer help with the testing of the routes currently being tested. The release of such routes would give a further boost to the current MSTS status as happened with the release of NWEv3 (circa 600+ downloads), Woodhead (circa 250+ downloads) and TTv2 (circa 1800+ downloads). Perhaps others could PM the UKTS management to offer help?

Good luck Alec, but don't hold your breath!

Bob.

There's no harm in asking, and I guess the world will keep on turning if the seeds fall on stony ground!

Are you talking about that guy in the Bible?

It all depends on one's interpretation of the parable from which that last part comes!

In the long term there are three possible outcomes:-
- I receive a reply which says yes and thank you (the seed has fallen on fertile soil)
- I receive a reply that says thank you but no (the seed falls somewhere between fertile and stony but fails to yield a crop)
- I receive no reply (the seed has fallen on stony soil)

Yep, certainly have to be careful with those "seeds"!

I for one would be sad to think that people would give up on MSTS. I have all three sims (including The Other One) and feel that each has its merits. At the moment, for me, MSTS is sadly neglected as real life is intruding into my spare time and I haven't had time to put my MSTS installation back together after deleting a few mini-routes to enable the Win10 upgrade. However, I think that there is still a lot of interest out there and the download numbers seem to support that view.

Hi All,
If anyone's interested in obtaining any of Making Tracks' products, Mike (Hendle) has very kindly posted a link from where they can be obtained : https://my.digitalgoodsstore.com/makingtracks
I can confirm it works as I've just purchased a couple of items (downloads only).

The original site included some free add-on livery packs for several of their products, but these don't seem to be available now. Also missing is the Toffee Apples (Class 31) pack.

Cheers,
Ged

Hi all,

Is it me or has there been a decline in help/advice and general chat regarding MSTS of late?..... I've seen a lot of posts and it appears only where there are MSTS related issues over on the UKTS forum are things (Sometimes) being answered....

I've seen no help or offer of help over here, so does this mean that unless you are into MSTS and have the experience of such that you are left to get on with it??..... For example I have asked for help with the Route and although I have yet to reply to a couple of people I am not getting any real help with the Route I have made a start on..... Although I have been doing little bits here and there, the route is going no-where the strength it should..... Also, the Hastings DEMU sets have now taken a back-burner for the minute..... I might possibly try and get this Act that I have waiting in the wings, but for me I am just going along my merry way and it will be done when it's done I guess....

Is MSTS possibly a dying breed? i.e No one has any interest anymore in working on projects etc..... I see even Alec posts things on his thread and hardly gets any replies.....

Andy

Hi Andy.

I don't think it is quite as bad as that yet, if you look at the help thread, there has been quite a bit help given of late with most problems being resolved, there are less and less people active on the MSTS scene, most of those who are still active making content are busy with their own projects, unfortunately most of us who are still active are now in the older generation and are less likely to commit to a long term project, people of your age are now the exception rather than the rule as most younger people have moved on to later software especially here in the UK,.

As for Alec's coaches, I'm sure once they are uploaded people will come back and comment once they have tried them for themselves, as often happens with other uploads, I am in regular contact with Alec as I'm helping him a little with them, mostly by testing, and doing a few passenger views, so there is still some co-operation going on albeit on a smaller scale than in the good old days when several people would get together and build a route, unfortunately my route and content building days are long gone due to health problems, even typing this will set off the arthritis in my wrists and hands, but it's still nice if I can do a little and offer some help or advice occasionally.

From my previous experiences, route building can be a very long and lonely business, I spent a couple of years on a route only for it to succumb to unforeseen and insurmountable problems which caused me to abandon it in the end, plus other people were covering the same area (WCML) and doing a much better job of it than I was.

Keep your pecker up and don't be too impatient with it, there will be times when you become exasperated with it and you feel like throwing the towel in, but just have a rest from it and take your time, you'll get there in the end.

Mark.

Hi Andy,
I try to help wherever I can, but must admit that I've missed a couple of posts recently where I could have possibly offered assistance. This was due to me being immersed in my current project, which is nearing completion (as you know!). I'm not sure if it'll be received as well as my previous efforts, but, hey, ho, I've enjoyed myself, which, after all is what hobbies should be all about

Routes are a different "kettle of fish", covering many different topics ranging from technical to aesthetic. If it's a one-man job, it can be very daunting, especially if he's lacking in some of the required skills!

Don't lose heart - I'm sure one, or more, of the talented MSTS route-builders will help you, so long as you clearly detail the problems, or queries, you have!

Cheers,
Ged

To be honest it doesn't really worry me whether I do or don't get comments on my work, although it's always nice to get a positive review. Admittedly I don't always react too well when comments are critical especially where I feel they are akin to rivet counting, and I wonder whether this affects how people look at my posts? I have reduced my posts because I also wonder whether too many screenshots of LNWR coaches becomes a little monotonous?

The bottom line is that I create virtual MSTS models because I derive great pleasure and a sense of achievement, but where I suffer is that I don't seem to be able to grasp how to upload my coaches to TSSH!

Working with Mark on these coaches has helped me with improvement, and confirmed a friendship which I certainly appreciate.

I very much hope that those who seek help both here and on UKTS get it, although with respect to route creation any seeds falling my way will definitely land on stony soil. If it's to create TSM models I may be able to help, although I would need suitable sketches, etc.

Finally I would say that this subject seems to arise on a regular basis including Trainsim across the pond, and every time MSTS users briefly speak up and say "No, don't worry, I'm still using MSTS"!

Reading this thread I noticed that only Andy and Alistair were under 50 years old.....this does go to show that it's mainly us oldies that still have the time and interest to keep going with MSTS!  The decline in interest is quite obvious, and there are very few posting on UKTS now, and these seem to be mainly "regulars".

My recent upload of SouthEast created interest for about a week ....this is probably the norm for a new route.....but in previous years there would have been screenshots and new activities uploaded, but not now. Was it worth 5 years of effort? Well yes, to me it was......like Alec and his LNWR stock, it was a project I enjoyed.

The hours of testing SouthEast convinced me that MSTS was too unreliable and frustrating though, and so I've decided to move on to OR. Of course I still need to use MSTS RE and AE, but as soon as alternatives are available I'll switch.

Hi Alec,In regard to your post of wed 23/09/15  in which you said  Quote....In the long term there are three possible outcomes:-
- I receive a reply which says yes and thank you (the seed has fallen on fertile soil)
- I receive a reply that says thank you but no (the seed falls somewhere between fertile and stony but fails to yield a crop)
- I receive no reply (the seed has fallen on stony soil)

I was just wondering if anything actually happened as I cant find anything further on the subject.Regards

neanderthal wrote:
I was just wondering if anything actually happened as I cant find anything further on the subject.Regards

As I received no reply I can only assume that the ground was extremely stony!

Thanks for the reply Alec,even though it was what I expected which is so sad....

dee4141 wrote:My recent upload of SouthEast created interest for about a week ....this is probably the norm for a new route.....but in previous years there would have been screenshots and new activities uploaded, but not now. Was it worth 5 years of effort? Well yes, to me it was......like Alec and his LNWR stock, it was a project I enjoyed.

The hours of testing SouthEast convinced me that MSTS was too unreliable and frustrating though, and so I've decided to move on to OR. Of course I still need to use MSTS RE and AE, but as soon as alternatives are available I'll switch.

Danny, I think you underestimate the interest in your SouthEast route. There is great interest in it and perhaps people are too busy running the many activities, as I am, to make comments. Looking at MSTS and this forum I see that there is a constant stream of comments and questions. In fact, there is one from several weeks ago on MSTS for your response!

Hello all,especially dee4141,I'm still running your Route and have put some screenshots up.It's a very good Route and I like many others will be sorry to see you follow some other big Contributors to MSTS leave for OR.
But for all that I can certainly see your point of view,but for me OR just cannot seem to work,I mainly have great problems with all things to do with the Brakes.
I have toyed with downloading an OR Route,one that does not require MSTS,but dont really know where to find one,but that would at least show me how OR works (without trees on the Track),failing that I think MSTS is in Terminal Decline ( I for one no longer think UKTS has any interest in it). ...Roger.

I, for two, still find MSTS very interesting.

I tried the very first version of the "other sim", didn't really like it that much, it has probably improved vastly since that early effort, but I have not been tempted to try it again, I have a couple of versions of trainz including the latest "TANE" version, it's OK for a change but certainly not a replacement for MSTS & OR.

David, I can't find any unanswered questions........

Roger, I remember your screenshots....I was really referring to UKTS which used to have a stream of new screenshots added most days - there are very few uploaded now. You should be able to run SouthEast in OR without trees on the track....all trees and groups of trees were added individually rather than creating forests. Mostly all of us are having problems with brakes in OR....the .eng files need to be adjusted for the new sim.....when I can get around to it - and when I can understand how to do it - I hope to upload OR versions of my loco models.

dee4141 wrote:David, I can't find any unanswered questions........

Danny:

I have just received Ian's patch. I'll check through this and also look at 45065 and 80014 etc. If I can get these running OK then I'll include replacements with the patch.

David, the problems with 45065 and the St4 Tanks were both addressed with the patch.

dee4141 wrote:David, the problems with 45065 and the St4 Tanks were both addressed with the patch.

Sorry Danny, I missed that patch but have now found it!