NVIDIA Graphics Card settings

Hi All,
I've been a long-time user of ATI/AMD graphics cards, but I'm doing some testing using NVIDIA cards and having trouble getting a decent quality image!  There is a lot of shimmering that I can't seem to get rid of. Two cards I've tested with are GT 430 and GTX 650.   I'm using the latest drivers - 347.25 - but have also tried 340.52.

If anyone has a good setup, can you please post details, because my eyes are going "all funny"

Many thanks,

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged.

I am using a NVidia GT 630, with latest drivers, not having any issues at all with it, I have it set to use the program aspect ratio rather than the default widescreen (not wide screen in MSTS) I am using a DVI connector to the monitor which allows this setting. (RGB doesn't)

Hi Mark,
Thanks, mate, but I've got all that - digital connection between PC and monitor, aspect ratio at 4:3 - as I've been running AMD for a long time. What I'm after are the settings within the NVIDIA Control Panel to give a good quality image (AA, AF, etc.) without the shimmering, which occurs on just about everything. I've also got NVIDIA Inspector, which gives a lot more options - in fact, too many!! The AMD Catalyst Control Center is much simpler.

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged.

My card worked fine from new, it was already set up in the computer when I got it, the only thing I did was to fix the aspect ratio, I am a bit reluctant to go in there and start messing round as I don't even know what a lot of the settings do, there are a lot of extra options with this card which I didn't have with the old one.

Hi Ged

I've got the GT610 (as you know). Can you describe the shimmering effect you're seeing and I'll see if I'm getting something similar?

What I do notice in mine is that at the highest resolution the text in the driving aids is not always that clear.

I have a GT 620 in both my XP and Windows 7 machines. I am getting better frame rates in busy areas than with the ATI Radeon X300SE which I had in the XP machine, but I am pretty sure I am getting a lot more shimmering than before. It is difficult to describe the shimmering, but that is the right word for it: solid objects appear to be shimmering when the train is moving. This happened before, but it never irritated as much as it sometimes does now.

I might try reinstalling the ATI in the XP machine to compare the performance.

What are the alternatives to a NVIDIA graphics card for Windows 7?

Much appreciate these forums, which I visit every day.

Regards,

Roderic

Hi Gentlemen,
Roderic - Following my experience with some older NVIDIA cards when running MSTS in Windows 8.1, I'm reluctant to make any categorical statements !
However,  using my AMD and Intel CPU equiped PCs, I've never had any trouble using AMD and NVIDIA cards under Windows 7 64-bit.  Having just replaced the AMD HD 7850 with an NVIDIA GTX 650 graphics card, I've noticed that the image is slightly blurred and, as you say, quite a deal of shimmering.  You have described it better than I could, but I think one needs to see it to appreciate the problem.  It might have occurred with the AMD card, but it's nowhere as bad as with the NVIDIA card.  Before anyone remarks, I know that the 650 has a much lower rating than the 7850 (according to the hwcompare site) and I will be replacing it with a GTX 750ti which is rated between the HD 6870 and HD 7850.

Stephen - Apologies for not coming back to you earlier, but I've been installing my Win 8.1 on to my Intel PC so I can dual-boot with Win 7.  It didn't turn out to be quite as simple as I'd hoped!  Anyway, it's done (almost!) now.
I think you'll almost certainly be experiencing the shimmering as Roderic described, unless you've found the "sweet-spot" with the settings. I'll add that the shimmering also applies to moving AI trains when the Player is stationary.  As far as possible, I have used the same settings in the NVIDIA Control Panel as I used in the Catalyst Control Center, but they are not really compatible!!  

Cheers,
Ged

Gents

I haven't been driving as much as I would have liked to over the long weekend that we've just had here, but one thing that I did notice that one of the scenary elements (part of the embankment leading into, I think, Cresswell Tunnel on the Peak Line) was flashing quite quickly as I moved into the tunnel. Is that what you're seeing too?

My guess is that it's the result of the object's surface/texture being redrawn at a rate slow enough to be seen as it's size is changed. I've no idea what would be causing that, though.

Do you notice any dip in the framerate when it happens?

Stephen

No, the shimmering seems to be independent of the frame rate.
It occurs as soon as the player train begins to move. It affects some items more than others, but is pretty irritating all over.

Ged

Yes, it affects the AI trains when you are stationary.

I will report further when I have had a chance to compare graphics cards, but it may be a week or two yet.

Thanks to you both,

Roderic

Hi All,
Seems a little quiet on the Forum today!

Scouring the 'net for answers to my NVIDIA problem, I've found out that there are many posts complaining about the same problem (shimmering / moire effects) especially with later drivers, covering MSTS and FSX (Flight Sim). It appears that the NVIDIA Control Panel settings aren't passed on to MSTS, for some reason! I have the separate Nvidia Inpector utility and will see if that works, after changing the Control Panel settings to default.

Cheers,
Ged

Good Morning All.

I have tried altering the settings in the NVIDIA control panel. I don't think it makes any difference. If I knew what anisotropic filtering and triple buffering meant, amongst others, I could use the advanced settings, but I suspect that would not make that much difference either.

It would be helpful to find a solution to all this as, although I am enjoying improved frame rates, the shimmering did at one time make me wonder whether I really wanted to go on wit MSTS.

Many thanks to all who are giving the subject some thought.

Roderic

This is merely an aside, but have we got a situation where the latest hardware is not truly compatible with MSTS?

Out of interest - apologies if I missed a comment - does the "shimmering" occur when you run Open Rails?

rufuskins wrote:This is merely an aside, but have we got a situation where the latest hardware is not truly compatible with MSTS?

Out of interest - apologies if I missed a comment - does the "shimmering" occur when you run Open Rails?

Although I rarely use it: yes it gives a similar effect but to a much  lesser extent.

Having lived with this 'shimmering' for a while I was hoping someone might have found a solution or the optimal settings .  I actually find the on-board intel 4000 gives slightly less of the effect than the installed nvidea card.

If you search 'shimmering games' on google,  MSTS is far from alone in exhibiting the problem.

Cheers
Clive

Hi Alec,
Further to Clive's comments, I found that if the NVIDIA Control Panel is used to set Anti-aliasing, Anisotropic filtering, etc, they are not passed over to Open Rails or MSTS.

I've been playing with NV_Inspector and have been able to get a very much improved image in both MSTS and OR.  It still shows slight "disturbances", if I can call them that, particularly with lineside fencing, but there is no shimmering on buildings, etc.  For information, I've been testing with the Thames-Mersey route leaving from Crewe towards Euston; previously, I had noticed the problem on Clive's Bristol to Birmingham route at New Street and, if that has similarly improved, I'll post my NV_Inspector settings for others to check out!

Cheers,
Ged

Hi,
I'm pleased to say that the Birmingham New Street scene is vastly improved

NV_Inspector has many settings which can be adjusted, but only a relative few are applicable to MSTS.  I show below the settings in the four sections which, I believe, are pertinent.  This is really still a WIP and further improvements may be possible.  Please note that these settings work with my GeForce GTX 650 1GB card - other cards may not offer exactly the same settings, especially for Anti-aliasing and Anisotropic Filtering.



NV_Inspector is primarily an overclocking tool and is available (free!) here : http://www.guru3d.com/files-details/nvidia-inspector-download.html
The button to access the settings screen is indicated below :


Cheers,
Ged

I also note out of interest that the "shimmering" with NVDIA cards has been commented on since at least 2004! I also believe that this effect has been commented upon on UKTS in both MSTS and the other sim!

Hi Alec,
That's a long time for nothing to be done about it!!

I had thought about posting my last message in the HFL section, but didn't because it might not be the final/best combination of parameters.
I'm going to check them with two lower spec'ed cards - GT 430 and GT 620 - and see how it goes

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged,
Brilliant work. I had already downloaded and played with the programme in anticipation of you providing a solution. .

The shimmering on all of the models has disappeared, with just a bit of shimmering on the transfers I use for making yards etc. I can put up with that.

One little problem is my signals. I use a modified siglight ace that provides brighter signals at distance (they would have been in BTB as well) but the effect seems to have been reverted back to the default where you see the colour aspect just as you get to the signal. Any ideas?

Thanks for your hard work.
Cheers
Clive

This is all very helpful indeed. I would not expect lineside fences to stop shimmering or rail-built signal posts until you get reasonably close to them, but it would be helpful if trees and buildings were a little more stable.

I downloaded NV_Inspector from the link, but AVG told me it was a Trojan Horse Generic. Should I be worried?

Many thanks for all the comments.

Roderic

Hi Chaps,
Roderic - No, there shouldn't be any problem - it's where I downloaded it from yesterday! It depends on the capabilities of your graphics card, but I hope you'll be pleased with the result.

Clive - There's only one thing I not happy about and it might have had an effect of the brighter signals.  Printing on the "Drive a Train", "Route & Activity Selection" and "Load Saved Activity" screens is slightly blurred; it's a case of tracking down which parameter it is and hope, when it's amended to correct this problem, doesn't have an adverse effect on the main image!!

I would like to hear of any tweaks made to the settings

Cheers,
Ged

Thank you, Ged.

I have followed your instructions and I am pretty sure there has been an improvement. I certainly feel more comfortable.

One needs to beware of a big download button on the page you provided the link for, as this downloads a zip opener and a lot other things you don't want. The download links are near the bottom of the page.

Many thanks again. Hope we can improve things further.

Roderic

Hi,
It appears that the single parameter which :
a) eliminates almost all of the shimmering/moire effects,
b) causes the blurred printing on some screens,
c) disables the brighter signal lights and
d) causes a "transparent box" around colour light signals, especially when a forest item is behind it

is : 8x Sparse Grid Supersampling  (2x and 4x versions also have b), c) and d) effects while not removing much of the shimmering)

So it looks as if we have to decide if having excellent image quality is more important.

I changed the Anti-aliasing from 16xQ (16x CSAA (8color + 8cv Samples) to 8x (8x CSAA (4 color + 4cv Samples) with a slight reduction in quality, but an improved frame rate (which is to be expected).
Please don't ask what CSAA or cv samples are - I haven't the foggiest

Cheers,
Ged

EDIT : Thanks Roderic! Sorry for not mentioning that, but it's something to be aware of on most sites - you have to look very carefully!! I wanted to download something the other day; on the first site there were umpteen download buttons but I couldn't find the one I wanted, so went back to Google and got it from another site.

slipperman12 wrote:
Please don't ask what CSAA or cv samples are - I haven't the foggiest

See HERE for NVDIA definition of CSAA, not that I understood a word of it!

Thanks, Alec, but I think I'll pass on that one too!!

An update on NV_Inspector - It does come supplied with a profile for Microsoft Train Simulator. Great!! I thought! Sorry, chaps, but it's not much use at all

Ged

Hi All,
A short and, I think, final update!
I've run the same NV_Inspector settings with GeForce 210 (GT218), GT620 and GT 430 cards.  The results are so very similar between them that I can't say which is best, although on specs, it should be the 430.  They show slightly more "shimmering" than the GTX 650, but are acceptable.  All these tests were with Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit.  Results with Windows 8.1 were worse, ie more shimmering, with the 210 sometimes failing to run and giving the "stopped working" message.  The settings certainly don't work in Open Rails with much worse results, but it could be that completely different settings are required; it's something I've not checked out.

I've also tested a GTX 750ti 2GB card which gave similar results to the GTX 650, but with better frame rates.

With NVIDIA cards, the second digit is important is determining the capabilities of the card - 1, 2 and 3 are all low end and 4, 5 and 6 are the middle to high end.  Judging by the specifications, a 240 will be much better than the 210.

With all the kerfuffle trying to get these cards to give a good image, I think I'm going back to my AMD 7850 and forget Win 8.1 as far as MSTS is concerned !!

Regards,
Ged

Hi Ged

Just to ruin your intention to make that your final update, can I just clarify what you found, please?

When you changed that parameter, are you saying that the shimmer went away but you then introduced other undesirable effects?

Cheers

Hi Stephen,
See my post of 10:08pm yesterday where, I think, I explained the problems caused by the "8x Sparse Grid Supersampling" parameter!

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged

That's the one that's got me a bit confused, sorry.

Is the bottom line a case of "can't make it go away without causing other undesirable effects"?

Cheers

Hi Stephen,
Sorry if it's not clear

It's the one parameter which, on my system, removed almost all the shimmering but it has those other undesirable effects. Your experience may be different, but whatever it is, if you find another combination of parameters which gets rid of the shimmering, without those other effects, I'd love to hear about them!

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged

Thanks for that. I might see what happens when I upgrade the video card. The GT610 is definitely quite light when it comes to the more detailed routes (particularly as I bought the 1GB version by mistake). I'm getting around 18-20 fps on the EB East Coast Express between Kings X and Peterborough, but that's with most effects switched on.

One other question if I may. What resolution do you use? I've got mine cranked up to the max but I have seen some suggestions that MSTS works best at 1024 x 768 regardless of screen or video card capabilities.

Cheers
Stephen

hi Ged,
Thanks for your hard work. I found the same : that 1 parameter seems to have the most effect,  +s and -s. Trying different combinations made no difference, but, the graphics are so much better, I think i will live with it.
Certainly MSTS compares well with OR on my system. See below



Cheers
Clive

Hi,
Clive - Although Open Rails looks OK in a screenshot, I've not yet found the "sweet spot" that removes the shimmering / moire effect when running the sim. What card are you using? Also, I don't understand the +s and -s you mentioned!

Stephen - I'm using a wide screen monitor (1920 x 1080) on which I'm very happy with MSTS which runs at 1280 x 1024 (32 bit). The fact that your 610 graphics cards has 1GB of memory should not be a problem for MSTS - my GTX 650 also has 1GB and gives good results. The important thing is how fast the card can process the data it's being fed. I believe one of the key elements in this is defined by the Memory Bandwidth value in the specifications. Your GT 610 has the same value as my GT 620, which is 14.4GB/sec; in comparison, my GTX 650 has 80 GB/sec. The Memory Bandwidth value is also determined by the card's clock speed and Memory Interface Width; the latter for the 610 is 64 bit and for the 650 128 bit.
Commercial routes, like East Coast Express, are built to run reliably on most PCs. If you are only getting 18-20fps on it, then for routes like Clive's Bristol to Birmingham your system will be struggling to give a playable rate!

Hope this helps

Cheers,
Ged

slipperman12 wrote:Hi,
Clive - Although Open Rails looks OK in a screenshot, I've not yet found the "sweet spot" that removes the shimmering / moire effect when running the sim.  What card are you using?  Also, I don't understand the +s and -s you mentioned!
Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged,
Sorry. Plusses and minusses. Plus better graphics with no shimmering and only a slight hit on FPS, minus slightly blurred writing and nearly invisible default signal colour displays.

I run a GT650M on a SamsungNP550p7c  with  a 2.3GHz Intel Core i7-3610QM and 6GB of RAM.

I rarely use OR because it has too many shortcomings at the moment but when i do run it, shimmering is minimal and nowhere near as bad as MSTS was. The Nvidea control panel gives the option of which programs to run on the card and I choose to only run MSTS. If I understand it correctly, everything else, including OR runs on the Intel 4000 integrated.


If you study the 2 grabs, the chimney pots give a good indication of how the  MSTS display is improved with your tweaks. I forgot that I had actually flared the pots when I built them in TSM.

Cheers
Clive

Hi Clive,
Thanks
The chimney pots look much better in MSTS!

If you're using the NVIDIA card for MSTS, it'll also be used for Open Rails, unless you actually switch it, usually through the BIOS. Therefore, as you've set up a separate profile for MSTS only, OR will be using the default NVIDIA setup.

Cheers,
Ged

slipperman12 wrote:
Stephen - I'm using a wide screen monitor  (1920 x 1080) on which I'm very happy with MSTS which runs at 1280 x 1024 (32 bit).   The fact that your 610 graphics cards has 1GB of memory should not be a problem for MSTS - my GTX 650 also has 1GB and gives good results.  The important thing is how fast the card can process the data it's being fed.  I believe one of the key elements in this is defined by the Memory Bandwidth value in the specifications.  Your GT 610 has the same value as my GT 620, which is 14.4GB/sec; in comparison, my GTX 650 has 80 GB/sec.  The Memory Bandwidth value is also determined by the card's clock speed and Memory Interface Width; the latter for the 610 is 64 bit and for the 650 128 bit.
Commercial routes, like East Coast Express, are built to run reliably on most PCs.  If you are only getting 18-20fps on it, then for routes like Clive's Bristol to Birmingham your system will be struggling to give a playable rate!

Hope this helps

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged

It certainly does. I've got some chunky routes in the pipeline so I will almost certainly upgrade the card in a few weeks' time (once the coffers have recovered from this month's splurge). Thanks again for your doggedness with this one.

Cheers

Good Evening All,

Since adopting Ged's recommended settings for my NVIDIA GeForce GT 620 I have driven many miles and I would say that the improvement makes the difference betweeen being irritated and accepting the image quality. I am extremely grateful for all the painstaking work Ged did on Graphics Card settings. I am getting frame rates of 59-60 in the country and 20+ in congested areas which is a very acceptable state of affairs.

I have always taken the view that MSTS has its limitations, but there s so much you can do with it that they have to accepted.

My machine has the following specs:
OS Name Microsoft Windows 7 Professional
System Manufacturer Dell Inc.
System Type x64-based PC
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4570 CPU @ 3.20GHz, 3201 Mhz, 4 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 8.00 GB

I very much appreciative all the help gained from TSSH forms.

Roderic

Hi Roderic,
I'm pleased to have been of help It's a pity that I wasn't able to find a solution to the cons associated with my suggestion There may be a way, but I leave it to others, for now!
As you'll see in another post, I've reverted to my AMD graphics card which, to my eyes, gives a better image without the disadvantages of the NVIDIA settings. The AMD 7850 card only has a slightly better rating than the 750ti NVIDIA card, but even the AMD 6870, which has a much lower rating, gives a better image, in my opinion.

Cheers,
Ged

Thanks, Ged.

Is there any physical reason why I could not fit an AMD 7850 in place of my NVIDIA card?

Roderic

Hi Roderic,
I'm sorry for the late reply

There's nothing physically stopping you replacing your GT620 with an AMD HD 7850, except for the following :
1. The 7850 is a dual-width card, so will cause problems for you if you have another card plugged into the socket immediately next to the one you use for the graphics card.  If it's present, you will also require to remove the blanking plate next to the old graphics card's aperture.
2. The 7850 requires a separate power connection.  If your Power Supply Unit has a black 6-pin plug connected to yellow and black cables, probably with "PCI" or "PCIe" printed on it, you should be OK.  If not, all is not lost!  If your PSU has a spare Molex connector (flat white or translucent plug with 4 connections) an adapter cable can be purchased which will connect it to the graphics card.

One thing to bear in mind is that AMD cards will not run MSTS under Windows 8, 8.1 or 10. On the other hand, they will run Open Rails successfully.

Cheers,
Ged

Thank you very much. That is all extremely helpful. Kind regards, Roderic

Hi  Ged,

Finally solved the problem of my signal lights reverting to the almost invisible default size/brightness after making the adjustments with NVInspector that you suggested.

Quite simple really.
Texture filtering LOD bias(dx)- highlighted the setting but left it at 0.000. In NvInspector it shows as grey  rather than the bold black type with other settings.
Texture filtering-Negative LOD bias - Changed from Clamp to Allow.

I can now drive my routes again watching the signals, rather than peering at the track monitor and hoping there's no cautions coming up. Heaven.

Cheers
Clive

Hi Clive,
Thanks, mate. That's a useful piece of information!
I've gone back to using the AMD graphics card, but has that Negative LOD bias setting improved the shimmering/moire effects?

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged,
There doesn't seem to be any difference. i.e. the shimmering had all but disappeared with the original settings you suggested and this last tweak doesn't make it worse or better. The signals working as they should is the big plus, (where semaphores are concerned), because the track monitor doesn't show signals at caution.

Cheers
Clive

I have been using a Nvidia GT 630 that came fitted with the PC new, which is OK for MSTS but it struggles a bit on higher detail routes or activities with with lots of traffic, I have recently got the latest version of trainz and the card really struggles with that, so I have bought a higher spec Nvidia GTX 750ti which I hope will be a big improvement on the other card, hopefully it will arrive today and I can fit it and give it a go, if the new version of trainz works without freezing and stuttering, MSTS should work like a dream even on high density routes with complex activities. it will be interesting to see if I get the shimmering with the new card like others have experienced.

The new card has arrived and is installed, Trainz 210 works perfectly but the trainz new era version still hangs up occasionally, but is now a lot more playable, MSTS is running very smoothly now, no stuttering.

Hi Mark,
Although I can't offer any help regarding Trainz, that is good news for MSTS!

If you are still getting shimmering / moire effects, may I suggest that you scroll back to my post of 28 Jan? You will need to download NVIDIA Inspector to apply those settings, but note that Clive made an improvement by changing the Texture filtering - Negative LOD bias value from Clamp to Allow.

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged, thanks.

I'll download it and try your settings after my drivers have finished updating, it'll take a while to download the drivers with this slow mobile dongle.

I have downloaded the "NVIDIA Inspector" program, have created and saved a new profile with Ged's settings, clicked on apply settings in the top right hand corner, and run MSTS, nothing seems to have changed, have I missed something?

Hi Mark,
Sorry, I don't know!
I'm unable to help as I'm not currently running an NVIDIA card, but, when I was, it did give an appreciable improvement.

Hopefully, Clive will see your post and be able to assist

Cheers,
Ged

Thanks Ged.

I am not experiencing any shimmering other than the moire effect which I have come to expect from MSTS anyway, the changes have made little or no improvement to the moire effect, doesn't look any different to me.